For many religious people, raising their children in their faith is an important part of their religious practice. They might see getting their kids into heaven as one of the most important things they can do as parent. And certainly, adults should have the right to practice their religion freely, but children are impressionable and unlikely to realize that they are being indoctrinated into one religion out of the thousands that humans practice.
And many faith traditions have beliefs that are at odds with science or support bigoted worldviews. For example, a queer person being raised in the Catholic Church would be taught that they are inherently disordered and would likely be discouraged from being involved in LGBTQ support groups.
Where do you think the line is between practicing your own religion faithfully and unethically forcing your beliefs on someone else?
That’s not just someone that’s a child, their child. So, the question should be: where do you think a parent should stop being a parent who has authority over their child? And where a child stop being a child (someone being taken care of and who is subject to the authority of their parents) to become a person (someone responsible for themselves).
Parents are responsible for their kids up until the child is reaching the ‘age of reason’ (sorry, not sure how to say that in English: when the is (legally) able to live and decide by themselves). How would anyone be able to raise (be responsible for) a child and make decision without pushing their own values on the kid? I mean, for me it’s almost impossible. You can give options, a lot of options, but there will still be limits. Heck, even the simplest ‘eat your veggies’, ‘brush your teeth’, or ‘you must do your homework before you can play your video game’ (or their exact opposites, aka ‘do whatever you want, I don’t care about you’) is already telling a lot about what values the parents are pushing onto their children.
My parents raised me as the atheists they were. That too is an ethical/philosophical/moral personal choice they pushed onto me without me being able to object anything, right? They never asked me if I was an atheist, or not.
The funny thing is that them being hardcore atheists did not prevent them to tweak the system so I could be send to a private catholic school because my father knew it was the best school. Another (unethical?) choice of them on which I had little to say as a child. And to be frank with you, now aged 50+ this is probably the second of only two reasons I feel gratitude towards my parents (the first one being that I had a roof and I was fed up until I was able to leave): the teaching there was demanding but it was also amazingly good.
Like mentioned already I would say: it’s the parent’s call. Because if christian or whatever else parents should not be allowed to share their faith with their own child, then logic mandates that no parent at all should be allowed to share no personal value at all with their child. Then, no parent should be allowed to raise their own child.
That may not be bad, though: Plato considered the idea in his Republic, suggesting kids should not be raised by parents but by city (the Ancient Greek ancestor of our modern States and Nations) operated and controlled institutions. But then, the question instantly becomes: who will decide what this city/state/nation controlled education should be about?
Real great question, with no simple answer I’m afraid.
How do you raise a kid to be atheist? Not teaching them faith based topics is not the same as teaching them to be religious. It’s just the default setting.
That’s the fundamental problem with your post, regardless of your personal experience with “hardcore atheists” which sounds to me as if they were likely to lean into the “anti religious” angle.
If you say so. Thx for the useful insight.
That’s a pretty snarky tone for dodging the actual question.
That was an excellent and well-thought out response, thank you for sharing it! It’s a thorny question for sure, and I appreciate your nuanced view
Glad to know. Like I said, it’s a complex question but a very interesting one. Do not hesitate, if you want to discuss it further. I don’t know about you, but I’ve always considered it a huge boost, I was about to write ‘a blessing’ but that would certainly not have been a smart choice of words ;), the ability to have articulated discussions about even the most… delicate questions.
The difference between raising a child explicitly by religious doctrine and explicitly by scientific understanding of the world is, in fact, a huge difference. Yes, religious parents forcing their kid to believe in divine transmutation of water into wine and bread into the body of christ is detrimental to that child regardless of their parents dedication to their beliefs. That child is being lied to. The line is drawn where a child is being guided by falsehoods instead of factual, evidence based reality. Outsourcing your children’s supervision to a self imposed panopticon is child abuse.
Your parents did the opposite. Your parents not only raised you without imposing a religion on you but gave you access to religious schooling because of its benefits. Your parents not only recognized the benefits but were willing to risk the potential psychological harms that could come from subjecting you to a religious schools curriculum. That is something that you only get from thoughtful and capable parents, which Christians by and large tend not to be. I say this from experience with every single Christian family I’ve ever known.
You said you’re 50 years old. Imagine being 50 years old having spent every day of your life believing that an unknown deity you can never see or hear is aware of your every action and every thought in your head and that, if a single one of your thoughts or actions displeased that diety, you were going to be forced into an eternity of unknowable torment and punishment for offending your god. That is the life that Christian parents impose on their children. Convincing them, from babies, that everything they do and think is heard and judged. Fundamentally, that is wrong. Raising children in that way is not just wrong but psychologically traumatic. Even for those who “choose” to leave their faith this anxiety around being watched and judged is a permanent impediment. That’s wrong, and parents should not be allowed to impose that on a child simply because they were convinced of it in their childhood.
Your story unironically proves that atheist parents are far and away better parents than religious ones. Idk how you take that and say who’s to say if one’s better than the other. My parents were “religious” but didn’t force me into any of it. I chose to go to church with neighbors and decided it was lame so my parents never brought it up. That’s what good parents who are religious should be doing. Not teaching their children to do exactly as they do.
On a more general note, may I advise you to be more cautious with your use of certain words. I mean, ‘good parents’ is a very strong expression nobody should use solely based on a first impression, a few words read, and certainly not as a way to demonstrate a point in a discussion because… doing so you’re only projecting your own personal values and ideals regarding what good parents should do (which could be 100% correct, or not, that’s not the point) and, well, in that specific case I can assure you you do not know who my parents were. Or if they were any good.
I will tell you they looked real nice people and most people meeting them liked them a lot. I will also tell you they’re long gone and that I did not shed a single tear when they passed away. What does that say about them and what does that say about me? Maybe that’s telling what an ungrateful asshole I’m, and I may very well be that. Or maybe it’s telling how appearance can be misleading and how much better and how much more intimately I knew my parents than anybody else. Who am I to tell?
I think it unironically shows what you believe in, which is fine by me and which is something I may even 100% agree with. That’s not the point.
My point was only this: my atheist parents (so you know: they both were sent to a religious school as kids too. Therefore, they did with me exactly like their parents did with them save that their own parents did not call themselves atheists) forced their own personal opinions onto me, without me being given any real choice.
My point was that the question should not be limited to spiritual or religious matters. And also being religious does not make someone an asshole more nor less than being an atheist would make them an asshole. It’s the person that’s the issue.
Then, I went back to the OP question, saying this was an interesting and very old question with no simple answer, referring to that Plato dude writing about raising children somewhere in the 4th or 3rd century before that other dude, Jesus, was even born. Why mentioning Plato? Maybe because that bearded Greek dude wearing a dress and sandals realized that families in his time were already pushing what he considered way too much personal values and crap, not just religious craps, onto their own child and that the only crap a child should be fed is the crap that the city (aka the Nation) has deemed good for… the city? I would encourage anyone to go read Plato.
So, where does that leave us?
We will all agree that thinking they hold onto some indisputable truth will concern many religious persons, right? Where I seemingly disagree with a few around here, is that I also think it concerns way too many so-called atheists who I think would be much more accurately described as ‘anti-religious’ (because ‘a-theism’ is the idea that there is no god, not that one should hate on god or religion). So, unlike those anti-religious persons, I don’t consider what they call atheism as a de facto smarter/better choice than being ‘theist’, or religious. That’s way too simple… like I was saying.
I appreciate the thoughtful response. My main takeaway, and what i wanted to make clear: the opinions your parents inbued to you were just that, opinions. You disagreed, you might not have liked your parents for any number of reasons. I certainly don’t like my parents, they abandoned me at 18 and became trump supporters. What they didn’t do is raise you with a belief in something for the purpose of controlling you from within and without. You are free to disagree with my opinions and observations, but this is something I can tell from the way you speak and your ability to characterize yourself and your experiences growing up. You were not raised to fear a god who demanded obedience. Your parents, while having been flawed as people, did not force their opinions on you without reason like theology would have to be. They might have lacked the capability to recognize the flaws in themselves but they did you a great service by allowing you the freedom to form your own opinions that disagreed with them. This simple fact is something that religious children of religious families struggle with their entire lives.
There are people 50 years old who hated their parents and rejected their opinions but still can’t fix the psychological damage that a faith based upbringing inflicted on them. Like, legitimately, I think you are experiencing a life that is completely and radically more liberated than someone raised in a religious household even if the two of you were identical in every other way. It’s not a bad thing. I’m happy for you, seriously. I’m just trying to make it clear how having a secular family gives you agency you can’t even percieve. It’s like privilege in that sense. To you, it is just being. It seems like the rational conclusion one would come to, but without understanding how religion shapes a young mind you can’t appreciate just how much freedom you possess simply by having not been exposed to religious doctrine early and frequently enough for it to manipulate your critical thinking into your adult life. That’s a privilege that most people don’t have, and those who don’t have to work tirelessly for years or even decades to overcome their learned biases to reach the same point you or I have been at or past for most of our lives.
I hope that clears up some of my first comment. My intent was not that I was trying to exalt your parents for being atheists, but to applaud the ability to allow you to see for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Conclusions which, seemingly, went against your parents beliefs. This is the thing I was praising. I wanted to point out how much of a benefit that is to you, even if it doesn’t feel like it. I hope you’re having a great weekend, and I’d be happy to chat in dms if you wanted to discuss more.
I would not have considered it like that back then, and maybe I would not even today but I completely understand your point of view. And that’s true. There is certainly a huge difference between the way I was raised by my parents, no matter the other issues, and the way I would have been raised in believing in… something so out of of reach and unquestionable I should fear and bow to.
Still, they were highly destructive in their own way and, my live getting closer to its end than to its beginning I still have not managed to overcome a few of the damages… without any god involved in the process of damaging those things in me. That’s what I think is key: it’s too easy to think that by not preaching some religion/faith or another one is a better person. That’s not as simple.
It does. Thx a lot for taking the time.
Agreed and make no mistake: I fully realize that (it’s part of the education I mentioned I received) and for that I’m deeply grateful to them. But my gratitude will end there. For all the rest, I’d rather express no feelings of any kind at all as they would uselessly and mostly be negative. That would serve no purpose.
The same to you. It sure feels great to have a quality exchange. It’s not my habit to reach out (mostly because I’m shy), but don’t hesitate to reach out if you ever want to discuss anything further.
Age of majority would be the English term for it.
This was an enjoyable read in a sea of militant atheist cringe lords. Thank you!
You’re welcome.
I wanted to bring a different point of view as I’m not a huge fan of over-simplification with such a complex question (no matter what I may or may not think about religions)
+1 because I see no reason for the downvotes, beside some people not liking what you say or think? To those persons: feel free to downvote me to oblivion if it helps you feel better and much ‘righter’ persons but do keep in mind that it may also not be the most efficient way to help me understand in what way you think I’m mistaken. Obviously, this matter only if you want to help me understand, not if you want to ‘punish’ me for disagreeing with you. But then, I would wonder in what way that is supposed to punish me? Have a nice day, whatever you decide.