You did not address the fact that the Soviets directly collaborated with the Luftwaffe from Minsk. You did not address the fact that the Soviets had already geared up for an invasion on the Polish border.
Don’t claim you did when anyone can read you didn’t.
You misrepresent the facts surrounding Brest. The article you referred to does these things to: omit the facts that don’t match your narrative. You ignore historical context and have now resorted to putting up a strawman regarding which country did most to stop the Nazis, which was never the point I challenged you on (the historical fact that the Soviets did indeed agree to divide Poland with the Nazis and collaborated on the invasion).
There’s no point in continuing this conversation if you keep failing to address these key points that directly undermine your narrative.
I did address those. Plus, based on the voting ratios, it seems that “anyone that can read” is siding more with me than you. Normally I think referencing vote ratios is a stupid frame of argument, but if you’re going to make the appeal first I may as well point out that it’s in my favor, not yours.
I’m not ignoring historical context, you’re trying to invent a narrative where the Soviets, for a very short period, were actually super pro-Nazi and totally fine with them, surrounded on both sides by decades of hostile opposition and offers to send a million troops on the conditions of forming an anti-Nazi alliance. The country that hated the Nazis from the beginning, and killed 85% of the total Nazi deaths in World War II, somehow forgot its history and decided to collaborate with the Nazis willingly.
I guess I’ll show you a mirror: there’s no point in continuing this conversation if you keep failing to address these key points that directly undermine your narrative.
Please cite this directly because I’m not reading it in your replies.
you’re trying to invent a narrative where the Soviets, for a very short period, were actually super pro-Nazi and totally fine with them
Here’s the thing: this is exactly what the communist parties outside Russia also struggled with. Stalin made a deal with Hitler. Molotov literally said “Fascism? Fascism is purely a matter of taste”.
For the first two weeks of the war, the communist parties felt conflicted but ultimately didn’t need to change their stance. They were anti-fascist after all, and the UK and France had now declared war on the Nazis so this received the CPs support. Maurice Thorez even joined the French army (for a couple weeks until he left to go to Moscow).
But then, Stalin invaded Poland, and they met the Nazis as allies in the middle. Stalin publicly came out in support of Hitler’s “peace programme”. This caused some serious conflicts in the CPs in the west. Suddenly the logic shifted:
the UK and France had colonial empires, Germany did not
the UK and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around
the Germans had signed a pact of friendship with the USSR
So surely, it was better to focus on being anti-imperialist, focused against the UK and France instead of focusing on Germany.
You’ll find many socialist and communist newspapers started putting out pro-German propaganda (and some were banned for it). This only changed after 41, when the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union.
The Soviets were never “totally fine” with the Nazis. But for a time they were happy to see the Nazis turned towards the west, and they saw the opportunity to get some benefits for themselves too.
You did not address the fact that the Soviets directly collaborated with the Luftwaffe from Minsk. You did not address the fact that the Soviets had already geared up for an invasion on the Polish border.
Don’t claim you did when anyone can read you didn’t.
You misrepresent the facts surrounding Brest. The article you referred to does these things to: omit the facts that don’t match your narrative. You ignore historical context and have now resorted to putting up a strawman regarding which country did most to stop the Nazis, which was never the point I challenged you on (the historical fact that the Soviets did indeed agree to divide Poland with the Nazis and collaborated on the invasion).
There’s no point in continuing this conversation if you keep failing to address these key points that directly undermine your narrative.
I did address those. Plus, based on the voting ratios, it seems that “anyone that can read” is siding more with me than you. Normally I think referencing vote ratios is a stupid frame of argument, but if you’re going to make the appeal first I may as well point out that it’s in my favor, not yours.
I’m not ignoring historical context, you’re trying to invent a narrative where the Soviets, for a very short period, were actually super pro-Nazi and totally fine with them, surrounded on both sides by decades of hostile opposition and offers to send a million troops on the conditions of forming an anti-Nazi alliance. The country that hated the Nazis from the beginning, and killed 85% of the total Nazi deaths in World War II, somehow forgot its history and decided to collaborate with the Nazis willingly.
I guess I’ll show you a mirror: there’s no point in continuing this conversation if you keep failing to address these key points that directly undermine your narrative.
Please cite this directly because I’m not reading it in your replies.
Here’s the thing: this is exactly what the communist parties outside Russia also struggled with. Stalin made a deal with Hitler. Molotov literally said “Fascism? Fascism is purely a matter of taste”.
For the first two weeks of the war, the communist parties felt conflicted but ultimately didn’t need to change their stance. They were anti-fascist after all, and the UK and France had now declared war on the Nazis so this received the CPs support. Maurice Thorez even joined the French army (for a couple weeks until he left to go to Moscow).
But then, Stalin invaded Poland, and they met the Nazis as allies in the middle. Stalin publicly came out in support of Hitler’s “peace programme”. This caused some serious conflicts in the CPs in the west. Suddenly the logic shifted:
So surely, it was better to focus on being anti-imperialist, focused against the UK and France instead of focusing on Germany.
You’ll find many socialist and communist newspapers started putting out pro-German propaganda (and some were banned for it). This only changed after 41, when the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union.
The Soviets were never “totally fine” with the Nazis. But for a time they were happy to see the Nazis turned towards the west, and they saw the opportunity to get some benefits for themselves too.