Unchecked capitalism evolves into evil. But capitalism itself just a concept. Concepts are not evil.
It might be possible to transfer the dynamics to something that isn’t the economy, my favorite example is “as a game mechanic” or “as a sexual fetish” the big one is that all participants/players consent to it and have the right to stop and retract consent without losing the means to live and survive.
I can argue the same thing with consensual (Mussolini) fascism, which arguably already has an ethical
expression within master/slave bdsm role play.
I mean you only just entered the conversation i recon.
I have spend rather a lot of time today to clarify the philosophical reasoning that in reality “inherent evil” does not exist and borders on religious dogma. Evil is emergent of how people use/act/express and not the tool/systems themselves, which could have undiscovered ethical uses.
You can look trough my comments history if you want. I mainly learned not to debate philosophy in a popular meme community, even if I believe its important and relevant to anarchism.
In a society enslaved by a capitalist mode of production there clearly does not exist any checked capitalism. No chance even.
My best bet is some undiscovered more enlightened aliens. Just because we don’t have it does not mean it can’t exist. Or if you want me to repeat the example from my
tiresom discussion below. The gamemakers who try to sell a story with it, the scientists who try to simulate it to explore the concept academically.
For the record i do not desire or am trying to create “ethical capitalism” so i dont care about who would need to check it. I fucking hate it for all the harm humans have committed trough wrongful expression of it.
But if some day some humans do find a way to incorporate the capitalt concept in some harmless way i will neither be suprised nor call for purging that entire community. Which is what i am getting the feeling some people would do. The devil isn’t real.
That may actually just be how talk. I do read theory and its somewhere in here but it doesn’t replace my actual thoughts.
A problem i have with theory (inspirational as it is) is its rather old and limiting.
Bigotry and general evil as attributes of the bad guy in a tabletop rpg where such settings was communicated beforehand and your right to opt out at any point respected by all players and the dm.
If people do not express a concept in a way that harms people and overrules there consent then there is no harm at all.
Again in bdsm there even exists roleplay of force/rape. But with safewords to indicate real consent the expression of rape becomes harmless play. (I dont understand this btw but i a wont kinkshame and its an interesting social case)
One of my biggest gripes with capitalism (besides that i simply dislike the profit win game) is that it no longer appears optional, to provide for myself and my family i have to partake in it. My consent is overruled without option to not play the game and still survive in health.
What the F hell, absolutely not! The current dystopia is literally killing me.
I am a genderfluid autist, you think i am ok living in this world that has been harmfull to me non stop?
I just also a philosopher and like to know how reality works and what i discovered is that “evil” is an emergent concept from how humans express themselves in ways that overruled others consent. From being forced to listen to insults by the boss to physical assault.
You could not have judged me more wrong friend(?).
Not op that you replied to, but i find it funny to read your comments. I distinctly remember as a kid that i was playing with lego and i then realised that things like “justice” and “evil” are just in the eye of the beholder.
The good guy wanted to “protect his people and slay evil” (very hero-ist of the king lol) while the bad guy wanted to “have justice for being exiled and have better living conditions”. I realised they were both, essentially, the same thing. Both involved evil acts ( killing and fighting ).
So reading this chain of comments reminded me of that memory, and how true it is, at its core.
When we add factors like humans and power things gets vastly more complicated, but the core is the same.
Just like how current AI at its core, is interesting and super cool, but its been twisted and turned into something terrible because of humans, power and money
My autistic secret is i never stopped playing in my head.
The ability to build words from fantasy with my
drive for scientific realism allows me to experiment and study any idea or concept i encounter. I struggled a lot to understand my existence as a kid and it provided much more then school possible could.
But shh, dont tell anyone. People tend to find this weird (although i am getting the perception people are much more open to the action of daydreaming these days)
Huh, interesting. Im autistic myself and whenever i try to imagine a situation or place i kinda generate a world or scene in my head and apply what i know, or try to think of what could happen in that situation. In my day job this helps a lot to detect problems or make designs for things.
But i have never stood still to think that what you linked is what i might have, and is like a mature, overpowered version of what kids have. Thats flipping interresting
Great point. A dystopia in science fiction is indeed harmless. Because its a game i cant actually be physically harmed so i fully enjoy giving my consent to playing it
Wait you where arguing against me.
Are you saying we should ban violence and evil in games? I know this maybe common in orthodox religions but i can’t agree, media like cyberpunk are proving positive value by how they critique how concepts can be expressed as evil. Thats majorly important for the growth in society.
(Either the religious angle or you completely misunderstood my entire point, context is key. The way and when it is expressed is context)
You knew the context of the thread, and you chose to be like “um ackshully, all concepts are benign” as though the context in which we were speaking encompassed fiction and roleplay instead of actual harm to actual people. It belittled that harm for no reason.
I said the same thing about what was harming you, and now you have a problem.
“Capitalism isn’t bad. It’s what humans do with them that is bad.“
My reply was to someone who failed to understand what this meant so i provide additional context.
If you don’t understand that this conversation is literally about the differences between a concept and the context that makes it evil then i have nothing to tell you except you may want to work your reading comprehension.
Nothing i said says i find all concepts benign, the opposite is true they are all very interesting to think about. What i state they are not is inherently evil like its a cosmic fact written in the stars.
Also, i have not been attacking anyone merely engaged in friendly philosophy. Unlike you who suggested i am fine with bigotry.
This is a community for leftist thoughts, infighting makes us weaker.
If you have nothing more that is friendly to say, please don’t say nothing at all. Have a good day.
It is believed that bigotry was beneficial in very primitive humanoids: If you don’t know germ theory (or any biology tbh), bigotry helps against spread of diseases (while it might lead to incest… so you gotta balance it!)
Your immune system shows signs of heavy bigotry.
Evil is a category. Lion’s survival is “evil” to a gazelle while it is “good” to its offsprings.
How can I make my text better so you see that I’m trying to show that concepts themselves are not evil and only how you use those concepts make them evil to some subset of living beings?
I don’t know, most concepts are only bad when the recipient is human. We do unimaginable things to bacteria but we(including me) don’t see those as atrocities. Murder is bad but sterilization(mass murder of a colony) of a medical tool is ok.
How can I make my text better so you see that I’m trying to show that concepts themselves are not evil and only how you use those concepts make them evil to some subset of living beings?
Your comment sounded like a defense of eugenics, dude.
Eugenics(humans) = Currently everyone(I’m here.) but some cults agree that it’s bad.
Eugenics(animals) = We call it selective breeding/artificial selection and it’s a multimillion dollar industry, which is considered good.
Eugenics(plants) = We call it agriculture, the backbone of any civilization.
edit: Bottomline in case you misunderstand me again: Concepts are not inherently evil, how you use them makes them evil to some living beings (or all in some cases).
No i get their point.
Unchecked capitalism evolves into evil. But capitalism itself just a concept. Concepts are not evil.
It might be possible to transfer the dynamics to something that isn’t the economy, my favorite example is “as a game mechanic” or “as a sexual fetish” the big one is that all participants/players consent to it and have the right to stop and retract consent without losing the means to live and survive.
I can argue the same thing with consensual (Mussolini) fascism, which arguably already has an ethical expression within master/slave bdsm role play.
I hate the “unchecked capitalism is bad” bullshit. It’s such a cop out.
It is inherently bad.
sigh
I mean you only just entered the conversation i recon.
I have spend rather a lot of time today to clarify the philosophical reasoning that in reality “inherent evil” does not exist and borders on religious dogma. Evil is emergent of how people use/act/express and not the tool/systems themselves, which could have undiscovered ethical uses.
You can look trough my comments history if you want. I mainly learned not to debate philosophy in a popular meme community, even if I believe its important and relevant to anarchism.
Lol! “Unchecked capitalism,” you say?
Do tell, genius… who is supposed to do the “checking” in a society enslaved by the capitalist mode of production?
In a society enslaved by a capitalist mode of production there clearly does not exist any checked capitalism. No chance even.
My best bet is some undiscovered more enlightened aliens. Just because we don’t have it does not mean it can’t exist. Or if you want me to repeat the example from my tiresom discussion below. The gamemakers who try to sell a story with it, the scientists who try to simulate it to explore the concept academically.
For the record i do not desire or am trying to create “ethical capitalism” so i dont care about who would need to check it. I fucking hate it for all the harm humans have committed trough wrongful expression of it.
But if some day some humans do find a way to incorporate the capitalt concept in some harmless way i will neither be suprised nor call for purging that entire community. Which is what i am getting the feeling some people would do. The devil isn’t real.
Bro, read some theory. This is borderline stream of consciousness.
That may actually just be how talk. I do read theory and its somewhere in here but it doesn’t replace my actual thoughts. A problem i have with theory (inspirational as it is) is its rather old and limiting.
Old is fine. I started with the Communist Manifesto like most people. But Conquest of Bread by Peter Kropotkin is “required” reading now.
If you hate reading old stuff that much https://mander.xyz/post/38822770 join the dbzer0 reading group.
I don’t hate it, its just lacking sometimes.
I will give this one a go, thanks for the resource.
I second Kropotkin. Mutual Aid is worth reading as well.
Bigotry is a concept. Evil itself is a concept.
Bigotry and general evil as attributes of the bad guy in a tabletop rpg where such settings was communicated beforehand and your right to opt out at any point respected by all players and the dm.
If people do not express a concept in a way that harms people and overrules there consent then there is no harm at all.
Again in bdsm there even exists roleplay of force/rape. But with safewords to indicate real consent the expression of rape becomes harmless play. (I dont understand this btw but i a wont kinkshame and its an interesting social case)
One of my biggest gripes with capitalism (besides that i simply dislike the profit win game) is that it no longer appears optional, to provide for myself and my family i have to partake in it. My consent is overruled without option to not play the game and still survive in health.
I’m sure you consider bigotry and evil just fine in all contexts just like you do the worst of capitalism.
What the F hell, absolutely not! The current dystopia is literally killing me.
I am a genderfluid autist, you think i am ok living in this world that has been harmfull to me non stop?
I just also a philosopher and like to know how reality works and what i discovered is that “evil” is an emergent concept from how humans express themselves in ways that overruled others consent. From being forced to listen to insults by the boss to physical assault.
You could not have judged me more wrong friend(?).
Not op that you replied to, but i find it funny to read your comments. I distinctly remember as a kid that i was playing with lego and i then realised that things like “justice” and “evil” are just in the eye of the beholder.
The good guy wanted to “protect his people and slay evil” (very hero-ist of the king lol) while the bad guy wanted to “have justice for being exiled and have better living conditions”. I realised they were both, essentially, the same thing. Both involved evil acts ( killing and fighting ).
So reading this chain of comments reminded me of that memory, and how true it is, at its core.
When we add factors like humans and power things gets vastly more complicated, but the core is the same.
Just like how current AI at its core, is interesting and super cool, but its been twisted and turned into something terrible because of humans, power and money
My autistic secret is i never stopped playing in my head. The ability to build words from fantasy with my drive for scientific realism allows me to experiment and study any idea or concept i encounter. I struggled a lot to understand my existence as a kid and it provided much more then school possible could.
But shh, dont tell anyone. People tend to find this weird (although i am getting the perception people are much more open to the action of daydreaming these days)
Huh, interesting. Im autistic myself and whenever i try to imagine a situation or place i kinda generate a world or scene in my head and apply what i know, or try to think of what could happen in that situation. In my day job this helps a lot to detect problems or make designs for things.
But i have never stood still to think that what you linked is what i might have, and is like a mature, overpowered version of what kids have. Thats flipping interresting
Dystopia exists in cyberpunk fiction, therefore it is harmless and you’re fine.
Great point. A dystopia in science fiction is indeed harmless. Because its a game i cant actually be physically harmed so i fully enjoy giving my consent to playing it
Wait you where arguing against me. Are you saying we should ban violence and evil in games? I know this maybe common in orthodox religions but i can’t agree, media like cyberpunk are proving positive value by how they critique how concepts can be expressed as evil. Thats majorly important for the growth in society.
(Either the religious angle or you completely misunderstood my entire point, context is key. The way and when it is expressed is context)
You knew the context of the thread, and you chose to be like “um ackshully, all concepts are benign” as though the context in which we were speaking encompassed fiction and roleplay instead of actual harm to actual people. It belittled that harm for no reason.
I said the same thing about what was harming you, and now you have a problem.
I quote the context in which i was speaking.
The top comment states:
“Capitalism isn’t bad. It’s what humans do with them that is bad.“
My reply was to someone who failed to understand what this meant so i provide additional context.
If you don’t understand that this conversation is literally about the differences between a concept and the context that makes it evil then i have nothing to tell you except you may want to work your reading comprehension.
Nothing i said says i find all concepts benign, the opposite is true they are all very interesting to think about. What i state they are not is inherently evil like its a cosmic fact written in the stars.
Also, i have not been attacking anyone merely engaged in friendly philosophy. Unlike you who suggested i am fine with bigotry.
This is a community for leftist thoughts, infighting makes us weaker.
If you have nothing more that is friendly to say, please don’t say nothing at all. Have a good day.
It is believed that bigotry was beneficial in very primitive humanoids: If you don’t know germ theory (or any biology tbh), bigotry helps against spread of diseases (while it might lead to incest… so you gotta balance it!)
Your immune system shows signs of heavy bigotry.
Evil is a category. Lion’s survival is “evil” to a gazelle while it is “good” to its offsprings.
Look at this guy defending bigotry.
How can I make my text better so you see that I’m trying to show that concepts themselves are not evil and only how you use those concepts make them evil to some subset of living beings?
I thought making fun of incest was enough.
We see what you’re trying to do, you’re just failing to convince anyone. There are some objectively bad concepts.
I don’t know, most concepts are only bad when the recipient is human. We do unimaginable things to bacteria but we(including me) don’t see those as atrocities. Murder is bad but sterilization(mass murder of a colony) of a medical tool is ok.
Your comment sounded like a defense of eugenics, dude.
Eugenics(humans) = Currently everyone(I’m here.) but some cults agree that it’s bad.
Eugenics(animals) = We call it selective breeding/artificial selection and it’s a multimillion dollar industry, which is considered good.
Eugenics(plants) = We call it agriculture, the backbone of any civilization.
edit: Bottomline in case you misunderstand me again: Concepts are not inherently evil, how you use them makes them evil to some living beings (or all in some cases).