He said an AR-15 had too much recoil? Is he made of tissue paper, or did they mod it to fire artillery shells? Christ, one of the demos they did for us at our first live fire in basic training was having one of our fellow soldiers hold an M-16 stock UP TO HIS NUTS and fire it downrange to show just how little recoil they had. I’m not kidding, I personally witnessed this. I have also put at least 20,000 rounds through M-16’s and AR-15’s in my life. They don’t kick. Seagal is a pussy.
I was trained with the H&K G3 with a slide stock. It’s 7.62 and when I tried a 5.56 for the first time (a Swedish AK-5)I literally had to check to see if it did indeed shoot. There was no recoil from the 5.56. Never tried a M-16 apart from checking out the M-4 that the Rangers my squad was seconded to had (I was Norwegian Combat Engineer), no way that can kick to much.
M-4 / M-16 same difference. Unless it’s chambered in something other than 5.56 they all shoot the same. And yeah, it’s nothing like 7.62. As you are aware… you KNOW it when you’re firing 7.62!
It’s why they’re in common use and one of the best things for home defense. Basically anyone can handle one
Edit: ITT… people who think a shotgun with birdshot isn’t going through walls and is easier to use than a AR. In close distances, birdshot is a slug and will %100 go through walls.
I wouldn’t use an AR for home defense because I’m not interested in shooting through 4 walls and killing my neighbors kid by accident.
Have you ever shot a gun before? Drywall isn’t stopping shit. Handgun rounds go through walls easily.
I believe bird shot is enough of a deterrent for home defense and requires significantly less precision in a tense situation.
You shot to kill not wound, and a shotgun isn’t easier to use than an AR, on top of that birdshot is not fanning out at 10’ in your home… it’s basically a slug at that distance and will %100 go through drywall.
You’ve been reading some really FUDD shit if you believe anything you typed up.
Edit: lol at people upvoting that complete nonsense comment to this one. Please for the love of Cthulhu people don’t buy a shotgun and leave it in your home for home defense and do not load it with fucking birdshot…get a handgun if you’re afraid of an AR.
So you understand how birdshot is different than a FMJ? A pellet isn’t going through 3 walls, a FMJ is. There is massively more penetration and lethality after penetration. Have you ever shot a gun?
And yes a shotgun is much easier to use, are you crazy? You need much much much less accuracy. You literally can just aim down a hallway and get great coverage.
Holy fuck just stop … Birdshot as I have explained does not fan out. Stop watching cowboy movies. I own multiple shotguns in multiple different gauges and have my own range. I’ve been shooting probably longer than you have been alive. You clearly have never shot a shotgun and telling me you get great coverage down a hallway is complete nonsense, birdshot will not fan out down a hallway. The recoil and weight of a shotgun removes it as a good defense weapon for basically everyone but people who are physically strong. It’s a terrible home defense gun.
Did you all learn everything about firearms from Hollywood?
Nope, use shotguns and understand how different chokes can impact spread.
With no choke I would expect a 2 inch spread at 10 feet. 2 inches is a lot of grace in a life or death situation.
Yes it has a lot of recoil, but in reality you’re not getting into a shoot out. You’re shooting once, maybe twice, before the encounter is over or into a scuffle.
Nope, use shotguns and understand how different chokes can impact spread.
They are not creating this massive wall of birdshot that you are claiming. Doesn’t matter what fucking chokes you use.
With no choke I would expect a 2 inch spread at 10 feet. 2 inches is a lot of grace in a life or death situation.
Most people have no clue about chokes and there is not a single one giving you a massive wall of pellets at 10’.
Yes it has a lot of recoil, but in reality you’re not getting into a shoot out. You’re shooting once, maybe twice, before the encounter is over or into a scuffle.
ROFL no just no…there is a reason LEOs have gone from revolvers to double stack handguns…fire fights can last a lot longer than the bullets do and you want to be the last person with them. You %100 should not be skuffling with someone trying to kill you in your home with rounds still in the firearm you are using.
The amount of just wrong and ignorance in this thread is astonishing.
They are not creating this massive wall of birdshot that you are claiming. Doesn’t matter what fucking chokes you use.
I said 2 inches, not a massive wall.
Most people have no clue about chokes and there is not a single one giving you a massive wall of pellets at 10’.
Again, I said 2 inches, not a massive wall…
ROFL no just no…there is a reason LEOs have gone from revolvers to double stack handguns…fire fights can last a lot longer than the bullets do and you want to be the last person with them. You %100 should not be skuffling with someone trying to kill you in your home with rounds still in the firearm you are using.
You’re not getting into a shoot out. Most people run when guns start going off. Also, a home owner may have the gun sitting there untouched for months. A revolver allows you to just pull the trigger again on a misfire instead of having to clear the chamber, which uses both hands.
The amount of just wrong and ignorance in this thread is astonishing.
Oh I agree. And people misrepresenting what’s being said isn’t helping either.
it’s basically a slug at that distance and will %100 go through drywall.
Hey it’s gotta go through some fiberglass, glued-together wood chips, and plastic siding too. They just need a few layers of wet tissue paper on there as well and they’ll be golden.
A long gun is not good for home defense. A pistol is much better in CQC. Also a shotgun does require much less aiming in a high stress situation. You’re just being silly.
Also birdshot is not a slug. Those are literally two different things. That’s two different kinds of ammo, what are you talking about. A slug has way more mass, which is a hug factor in penetration. Wtf is this nonsense.
Source: bored out of my mind in the UMSC stained at 29 Palms and did Mohave Viper combat training stuff a ton. Try to clear a tight building with an AR and you realize how easy it is to just grab a barrel as you try to clear a room.
They didn’t teach you not to flag your barrel at the corners? Or you were using an M16 instead of an M4?
And at 10 meters you’re going to get about a 5 inch spread on that birdshot. At 3 meters (a standard 10x10 foot room) you’re looking at about 1.5 inch spread. At 1.5 inches it’s absolutely going to say hello to the next room over. Granted, an honest to god slug is going to go through the next 5 rooms at least.
Pistols are nice but actually require more training because people hold them wrong, sight them wrong, and reset them wrong, whereas a rifle or shotgun is a lot more intuitive as long as your target is reasonably close.
The conclusion is obvious. The best home defense weapon is a claymore mine rigged to your front and back doors with a poorly executed wire that taps a battery. Hopefully it only does it when the door opens. No worries about neighbors or missing the bad guy.
Source - Combat Infantry Badge, circa 2003 and way too much time being told I couldn’t do things I thought were perfectly reasonable.
Well obviously an ied hidden in a wall and hooked up to a unmarked lightswitch is the ideal means of home defense, but you need a gun in case there’s a second wave of home invaders.
Yes, you are taught how to clear corners. The problem is, in a home with tight hallways that’s hard to prevent while staying keeping an alert stance, without having another person to cover you. But hell, if you got a husband and wife team sweeping that would be bad ass.
And you’re correct, birdshot will most likely go into the next room. But it won’t go through multiple rooms and possibly into a close neighbor.
Agreed that’s pistols take much more skill, but I stand by them as the best home defense weapon if you’re able to train. A revolver specifically.
For anyone showing up later without gun knowledge to see why the first test is fatally flawed… Bird shot loses its penetrative properties as it spreads. This has to do with multiple rounds impacting an area of material. Seeing this replicated in the second video would have been very helpful but the content creators dismiss it because it’s pretty well known birdshot isn’t going through walls the same way and they wanted a funny video. (At one point they fire an M1 Garand at their walls)
What a lot of people miss about self defense is that you should also be into reloading. (It makes practice so much cheaper too) If you can reload your own rounds you can find the lowest load of powder that will cycle the bolt on your weapon. Less powder equals less penetration, but seeing as a 22 LR is lethal at home defense ranges (that comically tiny bullet that kids shoot) it will work. And you’ve got to practice anyways.
Watch the damn videos…no where did I say a 9mm will go through more walls than a slug… I stated that birdshot at 10 feet is basically a slug. It has not even left it’s sabot at that distance.
no where did I say a 9mm will go through more walls than a slug
Then I must have misunderstood this.
No that shit is going through multiple walls. Handguns will go probably through more.
I did watch the video. And no, it’s not basically a slug. That’s such a silly thing to say. A slug and birdshot behave very differently and would cause very different kinds of damage. Also a slug is going to go through a person at close range, birdshot won’t. That word “basically” is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Also at 10 feet most birdshot will have a 2 inch spread. A slug isn’t having a 2 inch spread, because yes, it does have time to disburse within 10 feet.
I have nothing to add besides the fact that I have been cut off by a USMC van in Morongo valley, they took me putting petal to the metal to get past them as a challenge. They money clutched.
Anyways 29 Palms is quite nice this time of year, I have to drive out to Joshua tree and the surrounding area for deliveries.
Oh no the area kinda sucks, im moreso referring to the weather and general climate. Id rather be stuck in fucking Baker than 29 palms, at least there I dont have to deal with the weird desert yuppies.
A long gun is not good for home defense. A pistol is much better in CQC. Also a shotgun does require much less aiming in a high stress situation. You’re just being silly.
A 16" barrel AR is going to be much easier for someone with very little experience in CQC using than a damn shotgun or a handgun. They’re not fucking marines…
Also birdshot is not a slug.
Never said it was. Literally said it’s basically a slug at 10’ in a home. Shit is not fanning out to a huge wall of pellets like the comment basically says.
Those are literally two different things. That’s two different kinds of ammo, what are you talking about. A slug has way more mass, which is a hug factor in penetration. Wtf is this nonsense.
Please re-read what I said…no where did I state it was a slug.
Source: bored out of my mind in the UMSC stained at 29 Palms and did Mohave Viper combat training stuff a ton. Try to clear a tight building with an AR and you realize how easy it is to just grab a barrel as you try to clear a room.
Cool, no one is fucking clearing their damn homes like they’re in Iraq…
Yes, they’re not Marines, meaning it’s even easier for someone to just grab the gun around the corner and make it useless. If you get into a scuffle a hand gun is going to still be able to be used.
Never said it was. Literally said it’s basically a slug at 10’ in a home.
I mean sure, if you don’t care about what’s outside or neighbors. There’s a big difference on penetration there.
Cool, no one is fucking clearing their damn homes like they’re in Iraq…
Exactly my point. Clearing a house effectively with a long gun is much harder than a hand gun. You have to be aware of blind corners and peaks where the barrel can be grabbed before you even see the person. That was my point. A handgun remains effective in a melee.
Now wondering if there are six-year-olds in Africa using M16/AR-15 style rifles as part of some warlord’s army. I guess they don’t get to go to kindergarten, though.
AK47, no US arms are there being used, it’s a popular rifle here, but anywhere else in the world its AKs and SKSs and Mosins. The amount of those variants built in the world is probably 5Xs the AR variants out there. The mosins alone are like 100+ million built.
He said an AR-15 had too much recoil? Is he made of tissue paper, or did they mod it to fire artillery shells? Christ, one of the demos they did for us at our first live fire in basic training was having one of our fellow soldiers hold an M-16 stock UP TO HIS NUTS and fire it downrange to show just how little recoil they had. I’m not kidding, I personally witnessed this. I have also put at least 20,000 rounds through M-16’s and AR-15’s in my life. They don’t kick. Seagal is a pussy.
I was trained with the H&K G3 with a slide stock. It’s 7.62 and when I tried a 5.56 for the first time (a Swedish AK-5)I literally had to check to see if it did indeed shoot. There was no recoil from the 5.56. Never tried a M-16 apart from checking out the M-4 that the Rangers my squad was seconded to had (I was Norwegian Combat Engineer), no way that can kick to much.
M-4 / M-16 same difference. Unless it’s chambered in something other than 5.56 they all shoot the same. And yeah, it’s nothing like 7.62. As you are aware… you KNOW it when you’re firing 7.62!
x39 is slightly more kick than 556, unless you’re talking x51, then sure.
It’s why they’re in common use and one of the best things for home defense. Basically anyone can handle one
Edit: ITT… people who think a shotgun with birdshot isn’t going through walls and is easier to use than a AR. In close distances, birdshot is a slug and will %100 go through walls.
https://youtu.be/j3BlRPtCj2E
Stop being stupid… unless you’re shooting 22lr, it’s going through multiple walls.
I wouldn’t use an AR for home defense because I’m not interested in shooting through 4 walls and killing my neighbors kid by accident.
I believe bird shot is enough of a deterrent for home defense and requires significantly less precision in a tense situation.
Have you ever shot a gun before? Drywall isn’t stopping shit. Handgun rounds go through walls easily.
You shot to kill not wound, and a shotgun isn’t easier to use than an AR, on top of that birdshot is not fanning out at 10’ in your home… it’s basically a slug at that distance and will %100 go through drywall.
You’ve been reading some really FUDD shit if you believe anything you typed up.
Edit: lol at people upvoting that complete nonsense comment to this one. Please for the love of Cthulhu people don’t buy a shotgun and leave it in your home for home defense and do not load it with fucking birdshot…get a handgun if you’re afraid of an AR.
So you understand how birdshot is different than a FMJ? A pellet isn’t going through 3 walls, a FMJ is. There is massively more penetration and lethality after penetration. Have you ever shot a gun?
And yes a shotgun is much easier to use, are you crazy? You need much much much less accuracy. You literally can just aim down a hallway and get great coverage.
https://youtu.be/H6clay9pFaw
Holy fuck just stop … Birdshot as I have explained does not fan out. Stop watching cowboy movies. I own multiple shotguns in multiple different gauges and have my own range. I’ve been shooting probably longer than you have been alive. You clearly have never shot a shotgun and telling me you get great coverage down a hallway is complete nonsense, birdshot will not fan out down a hallway. The recoil and weight of a shotgun removes it as a good defense weapon for basically everyone but people who are physically strong. It’s a terrible home defense gun.
Did you all learn everything about firearms from Hollywood?
Nope, use shotguns and understand how different chokes can impact spread.
With no choke I would expect a 2 inch spread at 10 feet. 2 inches is a lot of grace in a life or death situation.
Yes it has a lot of recoil, but in reality you’re not getting into a shoot out. You’re shooting once, maybe twice, before the encounter is over or into a scuffle.
They are not creating this massive wall of birdshot that you are claiming. Doesn’t matter what fucking chokes you use.
Most people have no clue about chokes and there is not a single one giving you a massive wall of pellets at 10’.
ROFL no just no…there is a reason LEOs have gone from revolvers to double stack handguns…fire fights can last a lot longer than the bullets do and you want to be the last person with them. You %100 should not be skuffling with someone trying to kill you in your home with rounds still in the firearm you are using.
The amount of just wrong and ignorance in this thread is astonishing.
I said 2 inches, not a massive wall.
Again, I said 2 inches, not a massive wall…
You’re not getting into a shoot out. Most people run when guns start going off. Also, a home owner may have the gun sitting there untouched for months. A revolver allows you to just pull the trigger again on a misfire instead of having to clear the chamber, which uses both hands.
Oh I agree. And people misrepresenting what’s being said isn’t helping either.
Hey it’s gotta go through some fiberglass, glued-together wood chips, and plastic siding too. They just need a few layers of wet tissue paper on there as well and they’ll be golden.
Don’t forget the wallpaper, it’ll totally stop the fanned out pellets, they’re like BBs, they’re just gonna sting when they hit the inturder…lol
A long gun is not good for home defense. A pistol is much better in CQC. Also a shotgun does require much less aiming in a high stress situation. You’re just being silly.
Also birdshot is not a slug. Those are literally two different things. That’s two different kinds of ammo, what are you talking about. A slug has way more mass, which is a hug factor in penetration. Wtf is this nonsense.
Source: bored out of my mind in the UMSC stained at 29 Palms and did Mohave Viper combat training stuff a ton. Try to clear a tight building with an AR and you realize how easy it is to just grab a barrel as you try to clear a room.
They didn’t teach you not to flag your barrel at the corners? Or you were using an M16 instead of an M4?
And at 10 meters you’re going to get about a 5 inch spread on that birdshot. At 3 meters (a standard 10x10 foot room) you’re looking at about 1.5 inch spread. At 1.5 inches it’s absolutely going to say hello to the next room over. Granted, an honest to god slug is going to go through the next 5 rooms at least.
Pistols are nice but actually require more training because people hold them wrong, sight them wrong, and reset them wrong, whereas a rifle or shotgun is a lot more intuitive as long as your target is reasonably close.
The conclusion is obvious. The best home defense weapon is a claymore mine rigged to your front and back doors with a poorly executed wire that taps a battery. Hopefully it only does it when the door opens. No worries about neighbors or missing the bad guy.
Source - Combat Infantry Badge, circa 2003 and way too much time being told I couldn’t do things I thought were perfectly reasonable.
Well obviously an ied hidden in a wall and hooked up to a unmarked lightswitch is the ideal means of home defense, but you need a gun in case there’s a second wave of home invaders.
See now, that’s just too much handy knowledge for me. I have just enough handyman knowledge to order a sign online that says, “Smile For The Flash!”
Yes, you are taught how to clear corners. The problem is, in a home with tight hallways that’s hard to prevent while staying keeping an alert stance, without having another person to cover you. But hell, if you got a husband and wife team sweeping that would be bad ass.
And you’re correct, birdshot will most likely go into the next room. But it won’t go through multiple rooms and possibly into a close neighbor.
Agreed that’s pistols take much more skill, but I stand by them as the best home defense weapon if you’re able to train. A revolver specifically.
Anddddd you sold me on the claymore.
https://youtu.be/H6clay9pFaw
No that shit is going through multiple walls. Handguns will go probably through more.
If you want something not going through the walls, scream and yell…
https://youtu.be/j3BlRPtCj2E
Even better video, walls are doubled up and has distance. You’re shit is going through all kinds of walls.
For anyone showing up later without gun knowledge to see why the first test is fatally flawed… Bird shot loses its penetrative properties as it spreads. This has to do with multiple rounds impacting an area of material. Seeing this replicated in the second video would have been very helpful but the content creators dismiss it because it’s pretty well known birdshot isn’t going through walls the same way and they wanted a funny video. (At one point they fire an M1 Garand at their walls)
What a lot of people miss about self defense is that you should also be into reloading. (It makes practice so much cheaper too) If you can reload your own rounds you can find the lowest load of powder that will cycle the bolt on your weapon. Less powder equals less penetration, but seeing as a 22 LR is lethal at home defense ranges (that comically tiny bullet that kids shoot) it will work. And you’ve got to practice anyways.
A 9 mil will go though more walls than a slug? I disagree with that.
Watch the damn videos…no where did I say a 9mm will go through more walls than a slug… I stated that birdshot at 10 feet is basically a slug. It has not even left it’s sabot at that distance.
Then I must have misunderstood this.
I did watch the video. And no, it’s not basically a slug. That’s such a silly thing to say. A slug and birdshot behave very differently and would cause very different kinds of damage. Also a slug is going to go through a person at close range, birdshot won’t. That word “basically” is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Also at 10 feet most birdshot will have a 2 inch spread. A slug isn’t having a 2 inch spread, because yes, it does have time to disburse within 10 feet.
I have nothing to add besides the fact that I have been cut off by a USMC van in Morongo valley, they took me putting petal to the metal to get past them as a challenge. They money clutched.
Anyways 29 Palms is quite nice this time of year, I have to drive out to Joshua tree and the surrounding area for deliveries.
I couldn’t tell you why, but for some reason when anyone says 29 Palms is nice it makes me upset. Maybe I was just trapped there for too long haha.
Oh no the area kinda sucks, im moreso referring to the weather and general climate. Id rather be stuck in fucking Baker than 29 palms, at least there I dont have to deal with the weird desert yuppies.
A 16" barrel AR is going to be much easier for someone with very little experience in CQC using than a damn shotgun or a handgun. They’re not fucking marines…
Never said it was. Literally said it’s basically a slug at 10’ in a home. Shit is not fanning out to a huge wall of pellets like the comment basically says.
Please re-read what I said…no where did I state it was a slug.
Cool, no one is fucking clearing their damn homes like they’re in Iraq…
Yes, they’re not Marines, meaning it’s even easier for someone to just grab the gun around the corner and make it useless. If you get into a scuffle a hand gun is going to still be able to be used.
I mean sure, if you don’t care about what’s outside or neighbors. There’s a big difference on penetration there.
Exactly my point. Clearing a house effectively with a long gun is much harder than a hand gun. You have to be aware of blind corners and peaks where the barrel can be grabbed before you even see the person. That was my point. A handgun remains effective in a melee.
Except for kindergartners
Now wondering if there are six-year-olds in Africa using M16/AR-15 style rifles as part of some warlord’s army. I guess they don’t get to go to kindergarten, though.
AK47, no US arms are there being used, it’s a popular rifle here, but anywhere else in the world its AKs and SKSs and Mosins. The amount of those variants built in the world is probably 5Xs the AR variants out there. The mosins alone are like 100+ million built.