They’re always combined together. They’re considered part of the same event.

Are you really dumb enough to not understand my point with the dates? You made the stupid argument that if there was a really a massacre then why isn’t the tank man dead. This isn’t the “gotcha” you think it is because it shows you don’t understand what happened. The Chinese government gave the soldiers the order to massacre the students protesting on June 4th, tank man and the picture of him happened AFTER the massacre on June 5th.

the myth that people died in the square.

So let me get this straight, your grand argument to justify this massacre is that the people weren’t killed in the square itself but right outside of it? Damn, you sure showed how innocent and glorious the CCP is with this zinger.

I gave more recent examples too. The only reason I went back that far is to show that the US has been shooting at its citizens from the beginning.

You literally had one single relevant example. Even if we take all the other examples you gave and ignore their validity for a second, they still had less deaths combined than the Tienanmen Square massacre.

Keep in mind, China is a lot newer of a country than the US, so it feels fitting.

No way somebody is dumb enough to think China, one of the world’s oldest civilizations, is newer than the US. China didn’t start in 1949.

And 1970 isn’t that much older than 1989. You act like it’s ancient history.

You don’t even know what the topic of conversation is, do you? If you scroll up this thread and read what the original point of contention is, then you’ll quickly realize that it’s about some idiot saying that the US TODAY is worse than China. You citing examples from 1791 to 1970 shows that you either have no idea what the conversation is about or your argument is so weak that you have go that far back to find anything.

Once again, Mao didn’t kill more than Hitler. Famines are not the same as purposeful targeted genocides.

Mao’s death toll is so high that his non famine deaths give the Holocaust’s death toll a run for its money. Let’s do some basic arithmetic:

• Chinese land reforms: 1 million - 4.7 million

• Government violence during the Great Chinese Famine: 2.5 million

• Anti-Rightist Campaign: 550k - 2 million

• Campaign to Suppress Counterrevolutionaries: 712k - 2 million

• Three-anti and Five-anti campaigns: 100k

• Cultural Revolution: 500k - 2 million

That’s bring us to: 5.362 million - 13.3 million

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_China#People’s_Republic_of_China_(since_1949)

So even if we exclude the famine, which we shouldn’t because those deaths are direct result of his policies, his death toll is still either half of that of the Holocaust at best or even higher the Holocaust at worst. When we factor the Great Chinese Famine that he caused, then he’s well and away the greatest killer in history.

If you want, we can say that US Presidents are worse than both if you add every death resulting from every war, and every post-war famine, civil war, etc that the US has been involved with.

Except we’re not going to say because that’s idiotic logic. First of all no, not a single American president comes even close to Mao’s death toll. Second of all, his death toll, like Hitler’s, is a direct result of his policies. These death toll figures don’t include deaths caused by wars. If we included the Chinese Civil war or the host of other wars that he involved in, then he might actually top 100 million death by himself. Thirdly, even IF we did include wars, what kind of clown counts every single death in wars, including the deaths caused be the enemies, as a part of the death toll? Not only that, but including subsequent events as well? That’s stupid.

Not to mention that the numbers you quoted aren’t reliable.

No, they’re extremely reliable. All the estimates are provided by independent research teams and well respected academics who’s full research, sources, and methodology are have been peer reviewed and are available to all who wish to see them. You just want to find any excuse to dismiss the figures because they don’t conform to your tankie biases.

Their sources are dubious and usually CIA funded. Deng’s numbers are a bit more realistic at 16.5 million but still most likely exaggerated because of the downplaying of Mao’s legacy they were doing at the time, like you mentioned. US numbers are usually wild guesses and extrapolations.

Do you actually think successfully arguing that the death toll is “only” 16.5 million is some sort of win? Not only is it sad that you think that, but it’s also a losing battle because that figure is well below what most academics estimate. There’s another thing, simply putting saying “US” or “CIA” in front of everything you don’t like doesn’t discredit the validity or accuracy of those figures or statements whatsoever nor does it make the association inherently bad. These assumptions exclusively exist in the empty minds tankies who think the rest of the world thinks like them, well they don’t.

People understand that despite all it’s flaws, the US is still a liberal democracy that actually has freedom of speech and freedom of the press. This means that academics in the US are extremely reliable because they’re independent researchers who can publish all their research without fear of manipulation or censorship from the government regardless of how the government wishes the results were or how they make the government look.

This isn’t the case in China because it’s an authoritarian country, and so research on touchy subjects is inherently unreliable because it all goes through the great CCP filter. Not to mention that the research on Mao’s astronomical death toll isn’t exclusive to US researchers. Academics all over the world have studied the same material and came up with estimates that are largely in the same range. So no matter what excuse you come up with, they simply won’t mean anything because you’re defending a position that contradicts reality.

successful revolutionary who freed them from an oppressive monarchy

What monarchy lmao? China has been a republic since 1912. I know tankies are ignorant, but do you seriously not know who the communists fought during the Chinese civil war? Because that’s astounding levels of ignorance.

brought them socialism, cut poverty, increased life expectancy, reduced mortality, increased the spread of education and healthcare, and led them on the path to where they are now as an extremely successful country.

Literally all of this is false. Mao’s policies were such massive failures that killed so many people and brought so much suffering that the country was actually on the brink of collapse. After he died, his successor, Deng Xiaoping, had to do a de-Maoization to help save the country. The Chinese economy under Mao was extremely small and stagnant, and China didn’t experience any real economic growth until Xiaoping started liberalizing the economy. In the late 70s and throughout the 80s, he introduced a series of reforms that allowed people to own private property, allowed foreign investment to flow into the country, created “special economic zones” where capitalism ran free, and allowed markets to exist again. Only then did China economic rise start to take off.

You can literally see this in GDP numbers:

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/chn/china/gdp-gross-domestic-product

And yes, they were increasing life expectancy even while he was in charge.

The country went through a genocide that killed 30 million people followed by a civil war that killed 10 million people. The life expectancy in China in 1945 was 33.4 years. Literally any sort of stability would’ve seen a rise in life expectancy. We saw the same thing happen in Russia, Germany, and bunch of countries who exited eras of brutal war. With that being said, Mao wasn’t exactly good for the life expectancy, you clearly see in the country’s life expectancy graphs when the famine happened as well as when his brutal massacres started slowing down:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041350/life-expectancy-china-all-time/

And yes, the US is worse today. They are enabling a genocide. That’s basically the checkmate of atrocities.

China is arming Russia’s genocide in Ukraine as well as committing their own genocides in TIbet and Xinjiang. So if we’re using mental gymnastics make the US indirectly supporting Israel count as enabling genocide, then China has a checkmate x3.

Its not a competition, but the point is that these statements and propaganda always start as a way to encourage war and conflict with other countries.

These atrocities are historical facts, not propaganda, and recognizing them isn’t going to start wars. What kind of idiot thinks that recognizing and condemning an atrocity like the holocaust is propaganda to start a war? If you ever get the self awareness to wonder why nobody likes tankies, this is why.

It’s why China doesn’t celebrate the Kent massacre every year or the Civil War

Nobody is celebrating this massacre you dimwit. People are acknowledging and condemning it because, unlike the US, the Chinese government denies the atrocities it committed and pretends this massacre never happened.

They don’t have military bases all over the world and aren’t constantly invading and occupying other countries,

Yes they literally are. Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, India, Tibet, and the list goes on and on.

And while China has a lot of negative points, that’s what makes the US worse that people in it don’t understand: it’s inperialistic nature.

Clearly, you don’t understand what imperialism is either because if you think China isn’t imperialist then you’re huffing something strong.

The context that the reason this is promoted multiple times a year as opposed to any particular atrocities committed by western media that this can be used to justify further hostile action against a foreign nation.

Here you are at again, this is NOT context. Context is when you add relevant information to a topic in a discussion. What you’re doing here is the tu quoue fallacy. Do you understand why the fallacy you’re using is just that? Do you even understand why fallacies are considered bad to begin with? We can’t have an honest discussion if you can’t comprehend this.

If you still use the word “authoritarian”, You’re not ready to have a meaningful discussion on the event anymore than a zionist screeching about “terrorists” is capable of discussing Oct 6th.

What other word would you use to describe it? You have a very big government that tries to control every aspect of society at the expense of the freedoms and rights of its citizens, it places a lot overbearing rules that are enforced very strictly, and those who break these rules receive punishments that disproportionately exceed the crime. In this case, the CCP is a tyrannical government that ordered soldiers to kill students for the crime of peacefully protesting. That’s the textbook definition of what authoritarianism is. How am I, or anyone, supposed to take you seriously, when you can’t even admit a basic fact like the CCP is authoritarian? Even they don’t deny it.

I don’t think you understand that norms and civility are a requirement for a peaceful, well functioning democracy. If you see them as a nuisance then you’re either an authoritarian or an idiot. Like seriously, do you think society is going to function if every self righteous politician start being obnoxious when something doesn’t go their way? That braindead mentality is literally how we ended up with Trump and MAGA in the US. It is THE first pillar to fall when on your way to authoritarianism.

These politicians can support or oppose whatever they want, it’s their job to do so. However, disrupting the duties of the parliament is not a part of their job, and they know that. If a couple of white politicians in New Zealand started doing berserker rituals every time something doesn’t go their way in parliament, will you still be making excuses? If not, then you hold double standards and you’re racist. They’re the same people, in the same country, and they should abide by customs that they set for themselves. The New Zealand parliament usually has 120, 117 members with vastly different opinions can conduct themselves just fine, 3 can’t. Those 3 got suspended.

You are being downvoted because, whether you realize it or not, what you wrote is extremely racist.

If you think what I said was racist then you’re an idiot who doesn’t know what racism is.

These are Maori. It’s their land and their traditions, and they are being attacked for both by white, authoritarian colonists. It’s unacceptable.

Calling New Zealand of all places authoritarian is the dumbest thing I’ve read all day. No, being Maori or any specific ethnic group doesn’t excuse anyone for acting like a jackass. At the end of the day people of all different races live in New Zealand, and that’s the way it is and will be. If you hold different standards on how people of different races can and can’t behave, then you yourself are racist.

Keep in mind, we’re not talking about regular people here, we’re talking about elected representatives. These people studied the political sphere, they campaigned, and they won elections. They understand what their duties are and what the scope of their activity should be. The whole point of their job is for them have civil dialogue with their colleagues on how the country should function. If they can’t do that then they’re disrupting the functions of the parliament and they should be condemned for it.

I support the suspensions. If all the other members abide by the same rules except for these ones then it makes sense reprimand them for disrupting the duties of parliament. These lawmakers were elected to be the voice of the people they represent. If they’re not using their voice to explain why they oppose the bill or what their proposed alternatives are then they’re not doing their job. Screaming and tearing up papers is just annoying and wasting everyone’s time.

What fucking context lmao? You literally provided nothing. There’s no sources, no arguments, no explanations, no points, absolutely zero context was provided. The only things you did do was make false assumptions and use fallacious reasoning to justify using logical fallacies. That’s not context, that’s trying to justify poor critical thinking skills.

Not sure why you are lyao. Wikipedia has a whole article about it:

Did you even read the article? It clearly states what I stated. islam allows religious minorities that fall under “people of the book” label (aka, monotheistic Abrahamic religions) to exist under islam, not as equals but as inferior second class citizens with limited rights. This article just states that the persecution was worse for Jews in Christian Europe, not that things were good in Iberia. There are even a few historians in this very article that argue that this label for this time period doesn’t actually align with reality.

You are engaging in historical revisionism. Jews weren’t persecuted or expelled in Iraq

The Farhud of Baghdad, took place in 1941, that’s before the establishment of Israel (1948) and before the end of WWII (19450). Everything that I said, you could easily find in this article or any article about this event:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

Zionism and Jewish migration to Palestine predate WW2 and the Holocaust, and the Mossad in various forms was active before 1948.

Yes, but Mossad didn’t try to get Jews in other countries to migrate to Israel until after Israel was established after the 1948 war.

Zionist gangs had already committed massacres against the Palestinians in the 1930s.

And vice versa.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

The Iraqi government tried to prevent Jews from leaving. Iraq at the time was also under British mandate, it wasn’t an independent state.

You keep repeating this like a broken record, but all your doing is demonstrating your ignorance. The Iraq government forbade Jews from emigrating to Israel AFTER the 1948 war. The farhud happened in 1941, that’s 7 years prior. Also, this policy last two years and the Iraqi government reversed it in 1950, this was the called de-naturalization law

https://scholarlypublishingcollective.org/psup/pir/article/1/2/392/390094/The-Denationalization-of-Iraqi-Jews-The-Legal-and

Iraq at the time was also under British mandate, it wasn’t an independent state.

The British mandate ended in 1932. Again, you keep spreading misinformation that can easily be fact checked with a single 10 second google search.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Iraq

I suggest reading what Avi Shlaim

He was born in 1945, the farhud happened in 1941. I know for a fact you didn’t read his memoir and you have no idea who this guy is. It doesn’t take an acadmic to figure that the article you posted is propaganda that bastardized his work. First of all, his memoir, Three Worlds: Memoirs of an Arab-Jew, mainly talks about the events AFTER 1948 when Israel was established and he talks about how he and his family were forced to migrate to Israel 1951 (He was 6 at the time). He states that during this time, Mossad was did a bunch of operations that tried to force Jews to migrate to Israel, and if you actually scroll up and read, you’ll see that I have mentioned all of these details.

The Nazis sure, but the Arab Muslims? That’s an ignorant take.

Don’t call something ignorant when you have no idea what you’re talking about. This isn’t some hidden secret or some controversial opinion, it’s literally fact. You can scroll through this list or the lists that continue it and find hundreds of examples of the Arab muslim world trying to get rid of Jews:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism

This is also relevant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world#Arab_world_perceptions_of_Hitler_and_Nazism

You ignore 1500 years of Jewish history in the Arab and Muslim world and the influential role they played. And instead claim Muslims wanted to exterminate Jews based on violence that happened in reaction to Zionism

That’s precisely the issue, you’re ignoring 1400 (that’s how old islam is) of history for a bullshit narrative that’s not based in reality. This is a good example of that. The Farhud in Baghdad had NOTHING to do with zionism. You’re such a dunce that you cannot comprehend that antisemtism in the muslim world has existed LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before the creation of Israel, and I literally gave you an example with the farhud. You’re not willing to accept the reality. If you think antisemtism in the muslim world started as a reaction to zionism, then your understand of this region is nonexistent.

European Jewish migration to Palestine started before WW2. Zionist violence against Palestinians was already a common occurrence in the 1930s. Zionists were already trying to lure Arab Jews to Palestine before the end of WW2.

I already covered this, so I’m going to move on to the next thing.

How does that justify the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine? Palestinians had no say in the matter. Palestinians don’t owe Jewish people reparations for what happened to them in Egypt, Iraq or elsewhere.

The entire point why I brought these people up is to showcase how these people are victims who ended up in Israel as a product of circumstance that was beyond their control. They weren’t there for “reparations” or as voluntary “colonialists” as your narrative likes to portray. This is like saying the Vietnamese refugees who fled to the US in the 70s and 80s after Vietnam’s neighboring countries kicked them out, only went to North America to colonize the Native Americans. It’s just an ignorant take on something that’s clearly more complex.

Arabs aren’t some generic people. If you were from Iraq, you should know that Iraq on its own is diverse with different factions with varying and conflicting interests.

Yes and no. You are correct in the sense that Arab culture is diverse and the ethnic groups that were Arabized through islamic imperialist conquest still remain distinct. However, Arab is still an ethnicity itself. It’s important to understand that despite the diversity, Arabs still view themselves as one. This is less true today because we’ve had around a century of Arabic states being independent, but after WWI, this was very much the case. Arabs back then didn’t see themselves as Saudi, Iraqi, or Syrian, etc. They thought of these new states as fake and they just saw themselves as Arabs in the Arab nation. It’s not inaccurate to talk about Arabs as a cohesive group, especially during the time period we’re discussing, because they did think and act as one nation.

Palestine isn’t Iraq. What happened in Iraq doesn’t justify what’s happening in Palestine, even if you insist that the attacks weren’t false flags, which they were.

You’re right in the first half, but you’re still missing the point in the second. It doesn’t matter if they were false flags, real flags, or no flags. What matters is that these events happened, and as a result of them, innocent people who done absolutely nothing wrong ended up in Israel by no fault of their own. What happened to the Palestinians during the Nakba was wrong, but what happened to the Jews in rest of Palestine and the muslim world at large was also wrong. These people and their descendants who are in Israel today deserve to be there as much as Palestinians deserve to be there. That’s why this conflict isn’t black and white.

In the conflict between Israel and Palestine. there’s an aggressor and a victim. A colonizer and a colonized. What happened to Jews in Europe or other countries is not relevant and doesn’t justify the crimes and genocide they inflicted upon Palestinians.

And this framing is wrong. It might be true today in the West Bank, it might be true back when Zionism was still only a movement, but from that point until today so much has happened that makes this narrative a gross misrepresentation of history. I’ll give you an example to demonstrate how using oversimplified revisionist narratives is bullshit. Anatolia for most of history was split between Armenians in the east and Greeks in the West. Then the Turks came in from central Asia and they committed a bunch genocides, colonized Anatolia, and became what is today Turkey. Turkey has yet to stop it’s colonization and genocidal efforts, and the effects of o all these events (past and present) can still be felt today.

Yet despite this, so much has happened in Turkey’s history that trying to boil it down to “Turkey bad” where the aggressor and the colonizer and Greece, Armenia, Kurdistan, etc are victims and the colonized is just ignorant. It ignores all the wars waged on by Greece or the Kurds or Armenia or the persecutions the Turks faced or the people who were forced to seek refugee in Turkey like Circassians and Tatars. It also ignores the fact that the Turks have been there for generations or that the people and government are not the same thing even if a portion of society supports the government. It doesn’t justify Turkey’s past or present atrocities, nor does it justify the atrocities against it, but you can’t operate from a narrative driven framework that’s not based in reality. The same applies here.

he is far more qualified than someone who parrots Zionist propaganda and historical revisionism.

History is not zionist propaganda. Though I suppose to someone who consumes nothing but propaganda such as yourself, actual history does seem like revisionist propaganda. Regardless, everything that I have said can easily be verified and sourced. If I forgot to source something, then just show me the claim and I’ll provide a source.

I recommend you read and watch what Avi Shlaim has to say about it. As an Iraqi Jew who has lived through that turbulent time

He literally hasn’t… how can he possibly experience an event when he wasn’t even born? Here’s a real account from an Iraqi Jew that did actually live through event:

https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2021/03/22/the-farhud-massacre-and-the-jews-of-baghdad-through-the-eyes-of-a-child-survivor-march-23/

And yet, for all your snowjob bullshit, there is one people in chains and another people putting them in chains. I don’t give a shit what the history is. No one has the right to do that to someone else.

We can condemn the Israeli government’s reprehensible actions without using historical revisionism to drive narratives. Also history matters, how else are we supposed to understand why things are the way they if we don’t even bother understand what led up to them in an objective manner?

The Nazis had a long list of historical grievances against their Jewish population. You would have been right there on the side of the Nazis, saying that while you don’t support them necessarily, you fully understand what Hitler is trying to accomplish.

That’s some colossal bullshit. It’s the other way around. The Nazis were notorious for historical revisionism and crafting propaganda narratives that misrepresented history and boiled down all the complexity and nuance to just “Jews bad”. That’s why they blamed Jews for everything. If the Nazis understood history, then they would’ve known that their decisions would’ve led to their demise. You don’t seem to understand that no cause is noble enough to justify dishonest representations of reality. This applies to both Israel and Palestine.

And fuck him, all I am saying is that the history that led up today is more complex than you people are making it out to be. From Israel’s foundation until today, there is a lot that happened that wasn’t foreseen by this guy or anybody. It’s like how the US was founded similar principles but ended up being something that’s vastly different from it’s founders imagined, the same goes for other places like Turkey or New Zealand or Brazil or even Palestine. You can’t boil down one of the world’s oldest regions with the richest history during one it’s most turbulent times to a narrative made by western activists who boil down everything to “this side good that side bad lol”, that’s ignorance.

And I’ll say it again, you’re not speaking history, you’re speaking narrative and ideology. You don’t seem to understand that it doesn’t matter what the founding ideology is, what matters is what actually happened. The fact that you think you can boil this conflict down to “good vs bad” shows that your ignorance on the subject. There are a lot of conflicts in history that could be that simple, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a good example, but this is not one of those conflicts.

History is meant to be something that’s factual, because you’re retelling what happened. You’re not supposed to be taking sides and digest information from the perspective of a side, that defeats the whole purpose of being objective.

I’ll give you an example, during the 20th century, around 1 million Jews in the muslim world were forced out from their countries for no other reason than being Jewish. These people didn’t do anything wrong, they had nothing to do with the creation of Israel but they found themselves stripped of their property, communities (some of which are thousands of years old) and were forced to go there as that was the only place that would accept them. These people are as much victims as the victims of the Nakba, except this was even larger in scale… yet people like you don’t even acknowledge it’s existence.

Here’s another example, before the creation of Israel and Palestine, the British Mandate had a population of around 750k in the 1920s, and around 10% of those were Jewish. Those Jews were very religious, as opposed to many zionist Jews that migrated there. These Jews were vocal against the creation of Israel, but they became citizens anyway when Israel was established. Those Jews also happen to be from sects that have consistently had the highest birthrates over the decades, and so their descendants today can trace their roots back for thousands of years having never left the region. These people clearly don’t fit the narrative you are trying to paint, but again, you don’t acknowledge their existence.

Here’s yet another example, the Palestinian national identity formed around in the 1920s and 1930s, around the same time the Israeli national identity formed, and both became official after the 1947 partition plan. Prior to the British Mandate, there was no such thing as a Palestinian nation. The term “Palestine” was a colloquial one that loosely referred to the region that made up the “holy land”. The borders and identity that we associate with Palestine today didn’t exist during the Ottoman period, these are literally British inventions. The region was divided differently and the people there saw themselves differently. The region was filled with Turks, Jews, Christians, Arabs, and bunch of other ethnic and religious groups. They all saw themselves as natives to the region and they primarily identified with their ethnic/religious group first and then as Ottoman second. The same applies to Mamluks before the Ottoman Empire. In this case, the Arabs in the region saw themselves as a part of al bilad al sham (the Levant or greater Syria) which was a part of al ummah al arrabiya (the Arab nation). This is because until the British and the French drew random borders, the Arab world saw itself as a single nation. When people talk about the native nation of Palestine, they have no idea what they’re talking about.

I could keep going, but you get the idea. Like I said, it doesn’t matter how something was intended to happen, what matters was what actually happened. These are all events things that were not foreseen by Zionist philosophers living in god knows where. This is precisely why you can’t develop narratives based on narratives, what you will end up with is a distorted image of reality. I agree with you that what the Israeli government today is doing in Gaza and the West Bank is reprehensible and I agree with you that Zionist philosophers were pro-colonialism, but what I am saying is that only using these two points of the regions history or using a single perspective (especially a biased one) will blind to everything else that happened.

I’m saying you have no moral consistency. Think about it, what purpose does your comment serve besides defending this massacre? You’re simply mad that are people are recognizing it as such, and you want to shut down the criticism by screaming hypocrisy, but that in of itself is hypocritical because if China came out and recognized the trail of tears for example, you would be ecstatic with joy. You wouldn’t be crying about how China shouldn’t preach about human rights due to their extensive record of human rights abuses.

>consumes nothing but propaganda

> literally make up things as you go

> people call you out on it

> everybody else is clearly brainwashed except you

Sure thing, bud

When a country does a bad thing, then that thing is indeed bad. It’s fairly straight forward. Your persecution fetish isn’t going to change the reality. You’re not a victim, neither are the communist countries who committed these atrocities. Just because you’re soulless ghoul who supports these atrocities, that doesn’t means others do as well. This might be shocking to you, but most people don’t have ideological brainrot. They call out bad things when they see them. That’s called consistency.

But that’s something you lack, because if you had consistency then you wouldn’t need to use fallacies. You would just defend your positions by their own merits, but you can’t do that so you become dishonest. Even now, instead of just taking the high road and saying “these events were atrocities and I condemn them” like a decent human being, you do the opposite by still defending them. You don’t seem to understand there is no justification for them. The fact that you are trying to justify them is direct evidence of your ignorance.

Yet Jews had their Golden Age in Spain under Muslim rule and returned to Jerusalem after a 500 year Roman exile after the Muslim conquest of the Levant.

What golden age lmao? islam is crystal clear that it has to be established as the superior religion of the land and that all the religions under it must be treated as inferior by having them be subjugated to additional restrictions like having to pay a jizya tax and being treated as second class citizens. Btw this only applies to religions that fall under the label of “people of the book”, aka, Abrahamic monotheistic religions. Other religions, like European Paganism or Hinduism didn’t get anything, islam says that they should either be killed, forced to convert to islam, or taken in as slaves.

Until the West started protecting them after WWII, Jews were not treated well for centuries. They’re still not treated well today. Several muslim countries today still don’t allow Jews to live inside their borders.

They were lured to Israel but with the exception of Egypt they weren’t expelled. Iraq went as far as prohibiting Jews from leaving and the Mossad did false flag attacks to encourage them to leave secretly.

I’m actually from Iraq so I actually understand what happened more than you. You see, Jews in Iraq were always subject to oppression, discrimination, and violence. Whenever something goes bad in the country, religious and ethnic minorities like Jews, Christians, and Kurds face the wrath of events called “farhud”. The word loosely translates to “looting” but the actual translation is pogrom. A farhud is when you get a huge mob of angry muslims going into minority neighborhoods and towns and destroying everything. They would kill people, kindnap women, destroy their houses/businesses/religious institutions, and they steal anything they can get their hands on. My family comes from an ethnoreligious minority in Iraq (called Mandaeism), and all the minorities in Iraq saw were subject to this type of violence after the 2003 US invasion.

Anyway, when it comes to the Jews in the country, in 1941 they suffered an extremely bad farhud. This was before the establishment of Israel, this was before the end of WWII, and this was during the holocaust. You see, during this time, muslim Arabs in general were very much fond of the Nazis. The Nazis and the muslim Arabs had a lot of shared goals and desires, they both hated the British/French and wanted to see them defeated, they both hated and wanted to exterminate Jews, and they both thought of themselves as superior and wanted to cleanse their lands of minorities.

The thing is at the time, Iraq was ruled by a royal family that was put there by the British, kind of like Jordan is today. This royal family was kind of supportive of the allies and they wanted to maintain a secular order that allows minorities. Iraqi Arab muslims (both sunni and shia) despised that so much so that there was enough support to foster a pro-Nazi fascist coup attempt in 1941. During the coup, the monarch at the time got ousted and was replaced by, Rashid Ali al-Gaylani, the fascist leader of the coup for a few months.

His reign was no stable but still, he had enough power to terrorize the Jews in Iraq. They were constantly subject to intimidation and violence where they would get their houses painted to mark them or told that they were being moved to detention camps asap. After a few months of this, the British sent in support to squash his regime and reestablish the monarchy, and they did. But the fascist regime’s defeat saw the country’s Arab muslim population rage and they accused the Jews and other minorities of supporting the British and their influence.

What ensued was two days of anarchy where the muslim population went into the Jewish neighborhoods of Baghdad (where most of Iraq’s Jews lived) and they committed one of the worst farhud’s in the country’s history. They killed hundreds, they injured thousands, they destroyed entire neighborhoods, and stole everything they could. Most of the Jews in the country either fled to other cities (which also had their own farhuds but not as bad) or to neighboring countries like Iran and Jordan. These people either stayed outside the country as refugees or were forced to go back despite the danger.

The antisemitism in Iraq was very strong even after WWII, and the Jews of the country were traumatized from what they went through so they lived their lives covertly. In the 1950s Mossad started their operations to get Jews to migrate to Israel, and at the time, they had shared interests with the muslims in the country. They both wanted to drive the Jews out of the country no matter what. And so another wave of terrorism took place, and this time the Jews packed their bags and left Iraq for good. Mostly to Israel as it was finally established and was the most welcoming place for them.

These people did nothing wrong, but they lost their homes, businesses, community (some of which are thousands of years old), and their citizenship. Why? Because they’re Jewish, that’s it. It doesn’t matter what terminology you use to describe what happened, the point is that these people were driven out of their countries and had nowhere to go but Israel. This wasn’t just the case in Iraq, but all over the muslim world. Nearly 1 million Jews had to relocate to Israel due persecution. This is why when people try to pretend that Israel/Palestine conflict is one sided are so mind numbingly ignorant.

Lenni Brenner (born 1937), formerly known as Leonard Glaser or Lenny Glaser,[a] is an American Trotskyist writer. In the 1960s, Brenner was a prominent civil rights movement activist and vocal opponent of the Vietnam War. Since the 1980s, his activism has focused on anti-Zionism. He has published widely on the history of Zionism, in particular asserting that the movement collaborated with the Nazis.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenni_Brenner

Ze’ev Jabotinsky[a][b] MBE (born Vladimir Yevgenyevich Zhabotinsky;[c] 17 October 1880[1] – 3 August 1940)[4] was a Russian-born[d] author, poet, orator, soldier, and founder of the Revisionist Zionist movement and the Jewish Self-Defense Organization in Odessa.

With Joseph Trumpeldor, he co-founded the Jewish Legion of the British Army in World War I.[10] Later he established several Jewish organizations, including the paramilitary group Betar in Latvia, the youth movement Hatzohar and the militant organization Irgun in Mandatory Palestine.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky#Early_life

Yeah, I don’t care what some activist who has clear biases wrote about some other activist who also has clear biases but in the other direction . We’re talking about isn’t about ideology, but how the actual history unfolded, what events ended up taking place, and how those events lead us to today. My point is that the actual history that took place is beyond of the scope of ideological framing. The reality is more complex then you give it credit.

Can you quit doing holocaust trivialisation?

Pointing out other atrocities in history that are just as, if not more horrific, is not trivialization. The Holocaust is one of the worst events in history, no doubt about it. That being said there are other atrocities in history that have reached that levels in either ruthlessness, death toll, or both. Ignoring the other atrocities in history would just be us trivializing them.

Attrocities have been commited under every ideologies (wanna talk about Congo?).

Yes, they have, and yes, we should talk about them. Belguim’s atrocities in the Congo aren’t talked about nearly enough.

Nazis were the only ones with the explicit goal of ethnic purity

No, this is false. The idea of ethnic purity is something that has been around for a long time. The only unique thing about the Nazis was that they industrialized mass killings while carrying out their genocides.

China doesn’t have a penn state day, idiot.

Penn state? Wtf are you talking about?

Also china isn’t arming a genocide right no

Yes, they are. They’re arming Russia’s genocide in Ukraine and they’re also carrying out their own genocides in both Tibet and Xinjiang.

It was a rhetorical question

I mean if your only source of information on this conflict Al Jazeera then maybe, but if you actually look through the history of this region you would quickly understand that this is a gross oversimplification that ignores a lot of context.

It ignores all the previous wars, all the tensions during the British mandate, the tensions during the Ottoman Empire, how the modern states came to be, how they developed their identities, the involvement of other countries in the region, the involvement of distant foreign powers, the insane amount of ethnic cleansing carried out not just in both of these states but also in the wider region as a consequence of that events that took place in this region.

The point is that there is a lot that led us to this point, and it’s neither accurate or helpful to boil to replace history with a narrative. We can have an honest discussion about the current situation where we can agree to condemn the atrocities taking place right now, agree that the people responsible should be brought to justice, while also acknowledging the historical reality. From that point of view, I see this analogy as oversimplified, but still accurate tug of war between the two where neither wants to let go of the rope until the other completely loses.

The soldiers weren’t given orders to “murder anyone that moves” or else the tank would’ve run that guy over. Where did you get that?

Tank man stood in front of the tank on June 5th, the massacre happened on June 4th.

I don’t think anyone even died in Tiannamen Square itself. Battles happened in other parts of the city as soldiers defended themselves, though. It wasn’t peaceful like you said earlier, soldiers died.

What was that again about me making shit up? It sounds to me like you’re getting high off you’re own supply.

but at least get the facts straight.

You know what, that’s a good idea. Let’s get the facts straight, shall we? Go ahead and post your sources that actually support your claims. Shouldn’t be a hard thing to do if they’re facts like you say. I’ll be waiting.

And of course similar things happened in the US. We bombed an apartment building. There was the Kent shootings, the Haymarket massacre, Whiskey Rebellion, the incident in Waco, the assassination of Fred Hampton, hell, cop shootings happen every year. Not to mention hundreds of years of slavery where who knows how many were killed.

Lol you really had to do mental gymnastics to come up with any examples at all. I mean you had to go all the back to 1791 to the Whiskey Rebellion (if we’re going back that far then look up the Taiping Rebellion) to find something and then used the Waco Seige of the Branch Davidians cult as an example. The only relevant example you have is the Kent state shooting, and even that’s from 1970 and only 4 people were killed. Even then, I’m honest enough to acknowledge that this event was indeed bad and should be condemned.

And no, Mao is not worse than Hitler.

Highly debatable. Mao has a very good case to top Hitler. He killed way more people and he was just as ruthless. Mao tops Hitler as the worst dictator of the 20th century.

Mismanagement leading to famines is bad and the Cultural Revolution went too far in some places, and China acknowledges those mistakes btw

Somewhere between 40 and 80 million people died under Mao’s reign. That can’t brushed off with an “oopsies”. Also, China still hails this guy as a national hero even though his successor, Deng Xiaoping (who’s responsible for the Tiananmen square massacre), had to literally do a de-Maoization like Khrushchev did with de-Stalinization to save the country from collapse.

but they don’t compare to the targeted genocides, holocaust, and wars of Hitler

Don’t get it twisted, Hitler is one of the most evil men in history. There’s a reason why he reached infamy in history. I’m just pointing out that he wasn’t without rivals during the 20th century, and Mao is one of the very few people with a legitimate case as being the shittiest human of that century.

Plus, the US has done all those things

Wow, you are slow. It’s not a competition. The reason why I brought up those things about China was to demonstrate no matter what examples are brought up about the US, China has an endless bag of atrocities to match or even exceed. That’s not the point because nobody is arguing which country has the worse history, the point of contention was that the person that I replied to originally claimed that the US today is worse than China today when it comes to things like Tienanmen Square massacre and their examples had no relevance to their claim at all.

You say you acknowledge the bad the US has done and then ignore all of them to make it sound like China is the worst places to have ever existed

You don’t need to have a ledger of condemnations so tankies can be satisfied with their perceived proportionate amount of criticism being applied towards China or any country. If an event is worthy of criticism then it should be criticized, simple as. If you’re seething over people condemning an atrocity and drowning yourself in fallacies like whataboutism, then there’s a good chance you either support the atrocities or the entity responsible for committing them.

If you made a post about the Kent State shooting, for example, right now on Lemmy or anywhere else really, you’re not going to get a hoard of Americans or non Americans in the comments crying about “BuT wHaT aBoUt ChInA hYpOcRiTeS?!?”, they’re just going to condemn the event and move on… as they should. But when it comes to doing the same thing for a country like China or Russia, you will always get a hoard of tankies defending the reprehensible acts and crying hypocrisy… even though they themselves are hypocrites.

All you’ve proved is you consume propaganda uncritically and without context.

Ironic coming from you