As a resident of a state where deer kill more people than the mountain lions we eradicated ever did, this rings true.
Along that line, you could argue that capitalists perform a similar function in economic ecosystems, exploiting the poor and swallowing up the weak. But then human society isn’t built to create an efficient profit mechanism. It exists to provide safety, cooperation, discovery, and the betterment of all humankind. Nobody needs to suffer at the hands of the economic predators.
Unlike in nature where you can just rip whatever you want away from whatever has it, under capitalism the only way to “prey” on others is to provide them something they willingly choose to buy.
You appreciate civilization because you’ve lived in nature.
What’s the most danger you’ve lived in
People die of starvation in a world that literally has enough food for everyone - because speculating with food is more profitable than feeding them.
People die of diseases that have known cures with low production cost - because the market will only finance medical research if the resulting drug comes with a net gain price tag.
There are literal wars being fought and people being shot for economic gains.
Humanity doesn’t have a resource problem. It has a distribution problem.
And the current method of deciding distribution of goods is capitalism.
that you think getting rich is equivalent to predation?
Genuine question: Where do you believe a millionaire’s millions ultimately come from?
There is only so much net economic gain one can create with their own two hands. Everything beyond that is created by other people’s hands.
People die of starvation in a world that literally has enough food for everyone - because speculating with food is more profitable than feeding them
Give me an example of starvation, past or present, that resulted from something other than uncontrollable weather, or government interfering with the food market?
I’ll take as many examples as you can give me, but one is probably a good place to start.
People die of diseases that have known cures with low production cost
I agree
because the market will only finance medical research if the resulting drug comes with a net gain price tag.
Wouldn’t people dying of diseases with known cures be a problem with the market not producing known drugs, and not a problem of research?
Wal-mart’s recent entry into the insulin market comes to mind. A capitalist endeavor if there ever was one, immediately rushing in to make profits by saving lives the moment they are permitted to do so by the government.
As a result of Wal-Mart’s acting like a profit seeking capitalist endeavor, insulin dropped in price by like 80%.
Not sure if I’m being clear enough here: the opening of free market conditions around insulin led to it becoming cheap enough to allow people to live.
Whatever was keeping insulin so expensive before that, it definitely wasn’t the free market.
There are literal wars being fought and people being shot for economic gains.
Right. That’s bad. Not very capitalist though, given capitalism is defined by free markets, voluntary exchange, and wage labor. Those are the alternative to shooting people for their stuff, if you didn’t know that.
You’re confusing capitalism with civilization. You don’t need to wrassle bears for your share of the picnic baskets in order to recognize that capitalism feeds the wealthy at the expense of the masses.
Capitalism is the free market system. It’s the one where to get something from someone, you have to get them to agree to give it to or trade it to you.
Private ownership, voluntary exchange. Capitalism. If you consider this to be “civilization”, that’s great. So do I. Trade is civilized. Consent to exchange goods is civilized. It’s also called a free market.
Capitalism is civilization. That’s a great way to put it.
If capitalism happens at the expense of the masses, why are the masses getting wealthier? That doesn’t make any sense.
Capitalism, civilization, whatever you want to call the places where people only work together willingly, those so-called “free markets”, those places produce enormous quantities of wealth, and everyone in them gets wealthier. Those are the places you have your main problems being obesity, addiction to endless entertainment and novelty, boredom. Wealthy people problems.
Civilization is a comfortable place. I’ve been in both places and I’d sooner choose to be fat, addicted to video games and pot, and bored, before I would choose to be malnourished, cold, and scared.
I mean, unless there’s something fun going on in the second one, and I know it’s going to end in finite time
Civilization predates Capitalism by a few hundred thousand years. Capitalism did not create civilization.
And capitalism is better than systems we had before, like feudalism and slavery. We critiqued and revolted and improved on those, and we can do better than capitalism too.
Capitalism is not the worst we can do, but it’s not the best either.
I guess it depends on how we’re going to define capitalism.
Cooperation between humans, in a state of nature, ie before civilization, incentivizes free trade. Why fight the dudes on the other side of the creek if you can trade with them?
Why fight with them when you could leave them alone entirely?
If communicating, why not trade with them?
If you want all their stuff for yourself,
is it really worth those four gourds and a bead necklace to fight to the death for it?
Coercion is costly, and it’s more costly the closer you are in strength to another person.
Trying to coerce somebody your own size is a bad idea. Trying to coerce someone smaller is inefficient assuming they’re not trying to kill you, which they won’t be because that’s suicidal on their part.
So the first arrangement we had with other people was free trade, governed by everyone’s capacity for violence and willingness to fight back if attacked. Probably less human-v-human hatred when nature was so relatively powerful too.
This is before civilization mind you, when we just had tribes.
In a separate thread it might be good to consider whether the classic dating of civilization to have dawned when agriculture created food surplus, is the first historical example of the capitalist/worker relationship. But that should be in a separate thread.
Food, water, shelter, and healthcare are not things one chooses to buy, but things one is forced to buy to survive.
To buy these, you need money. To get money, you need a job. You also need enough money saved up to survive after you can no longer work a job.
To get and maintain a job you need to buy some other things. Exactly what other things varies by job and climate, but in general: clothes, transportation, phone, electricity.
That’s a lot of things that you cannot willingly choose not to buy if you want to live.
As a resident of a state where deer kill more people than the mountain lions we eradicated ever did, this rings true.
Along that line, you could argue that capitalists perform a similar function in economic ecosystems, exploiting the poor and swallowing up the weak. But then human society isn’t built to create an efficient profit mechanism. It exists to provide safety, cooperation, discovery, and the betterment of all humankind. Nobody needs to suffer at the hands of the economic predators.
Unlike in nature where you can just rip whatever you want away from whatever has it, under capitalism the only way to “prey” on others is to provide them something they willingly choose to buy.
Oh, you sweet summer child.
I’ve lived in nature before. I appreciate capitalism because I’ve been outside of it.
What’s the most danger you’ve lived in, my tough winter child, that you think getting rich is equivalent to predation?
OK, I’ll bite:
You appreciate civilization because you’ve lived in nature.
People die of starvation in a world that literally has enough food for everyone - because speculating with food is more profitable than feeding them.
People die of diseases that have known cures with low production cost - because the market will only finance medical research if the resulting drug comes with a net gain price tag.
There are literal wars being fought and people being shot for economic gains.
Humanity doesn’t have a resource problem. It has a distribution problem.
And the current method of deciding distribution of goods is capitalism.
Genuine question: Where do you believe a millionaire’s millions ultimately come from?
There is only so much net economic gain one can create with their own two hands. Everything beyond that is created by other people’s hands.
Give me an example of starvation, past or present, that resulted from something other than uncontrollable weather, or government interfering with the food market?
I’ll take as many examples as you can give me, but one is probably a good place to start.
I agree
Wouldn’t people dying of diseases with known cures be a problem with the market not producing known drugs, and not a problem of research?
Wal-mart’s recent entry into the insulin market comes to mind. A capitalist endeavor if there ever was one, immediately rushing in to make profits by saving lives the moment they are permitted to do so by the government.
As a result of Wal-Mart’s acting like a profit seeking capitalist endeavor, insulin dropped in price by like 80%.
Not sure if I’m being clear enough here: the opening of free market conditions around insulin led to it becoming cheap enough to allow people to live.
Whatever was keeping insulin so expensive before that, it definitely wasn’t the free market.
Right. That’s bad. Not very capitalist though, given capitalism is defined by free markets, voluntary exchange, and wage labor. Those are the alternative to shooting people for their stuff, if you didn’t know that.
You’re confusing capitalism with civilization. You don’t need to wrassle bears for your share of the picnic baskets in order to recognize that capitalism feeds the wealthy at the expense of the masses.
Capitalism is the free market system. It’s the one where to get something from someone, you have to get them to agree to give it to or trade it to you.
Private ownership, voluntary exchange. Capitalism. If you consider this to be “civilization”, that’s great. So do I. Trade is civilized. Consent to exchange goods is civilized. It’s also called a free market.
Capitalism is civilization. That’s a great way to put it.
If capitalism happens at the expense of the masses, why are the masses getting wealthier? That doesn’t make any sense.
Capitalism, civilization, whatever you want to call the places where people only work together willingly, those so-called “free markets”, those places produce enormous quantities of wealth, and everyone in them gets wealthier. Those are the places you have your main problems being obesity, addiction to endless entertainment and novelty, boredom. Wealthy people problems.
Civilization is a comfortable place. I’ve been in both places and I’d sooner choose to be fat, addicted to video games and pot, and bored, before I would choose to be malnourished, cold, and scared.
I mean, unless there’s something fun going on in the second one, and I know it’s going to end in finite time
Actually capitalism feeds everyone. If you disagree you are welcome to provide evidence of calorically restricted people living in a capitalist place.
Capitalism feeds everyone better than any other economic system and definitely better than nature.
Civilization predates Capitalism by a few hundred thousand years. Capitalism did not create civilization.
And capitalism is better than systems we had before, like feudalism and slavery. We critiqued and revolted and improved on those, and we can do better than capitalism too.
Capitalism is not the worst we can do, but it’s not the best either.
I guess it depends on how we’re going to define capitalism.
Cooperation between humans, in a state of nature, ie before civilization, incentivizes free trade. Why fight the dudes on the other side of the creek if you can trade with them?
Why fight with them when you could leave them alone entirely?
If communicating, why not trade with them?
If you want all their stuff for yourself, is it really worth those four gourds and a bead necklace to fight to the death for it?
Coercion is costly, and it’s more costly the closer you are in strength to another person.
Trying to coerce somebody your own size is a bad idea. Trying to coerce someone smaller is inefficient assuming they’re not trying to kill you, which they won’t be because that’s suicidal on their part.
So the first arrangement we had with other people was free trade, governed by everyone’s capacity for violence and willingness to fight back if attacked. Probably less human-v-human hatred when nature was so relatively powerful too.
This is before civilization mind you, when we just had tribes.
In a separate thread it might be good to consider whether the classic dating of civilization to have dawned when agriculture created food surplus, is the first historical example of the capitalist/worker relationship. But that should be in a separate thread.
Food, water, shelter, and healthcare are not things one chooses to buy, but things one is forced to buy to survive.
To buy these, you need money. To get money, you need a job. You also need enough money saved up to survive after you can no longer work a job.
To get and maintain a job you need to buy some other things. Exactly what other things varies by job and climate, but in general: clothes, transportation, phone, electricity.
That’s a lot of things that you cannot willingly choose not to buy if you want to live.