It’s not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.
It’s not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.
I didn’t say you were tankies, I actually said you were not. I just said something weird was going on with dbzer0. Your comment here, I say without really meaning any hostility by it, is more weird stuff.
Every single one of the issues you’ve listed, you’ve reframed it into something different than it was. Neopronouns were never the issue, it was blahaj shielding a transphobic troll from criticism and banning people who complained about them (complained about them while using accepted pronouns, usually while explicitly saying ‘yes I’m fine using people’s pronouns’), purely because the troll cleverly decided to involve neopronouns into the issue. And then pretending that anyone who was on the “enemy” side was obviously a pronoun-hater and that was the entirety of the issue.
Intolerance towards genAI-hater trolls was never the issue, it was random mod actions against people who were not genAI-hater trolls. And then pretending that anyone who got the random unwarranted mod action was probably a genAI-hater troll.
Both of those are the dishonest framings that the people defending whatever weird decision love to use. And, no matter how often it’s pointed out to them that some other people disagree with their framing, they simply ignore it, as if the person hadn’t said anything at all, and repeat the framing that conveniently makes their answer the only possible answer. That is textbook tankie-instance behavior. It’s part of what makes them insufferable to try to talk with. Even if your politics are clearly not tankie.
And, of course:
Aha!
“One of our users.”
That’s the root of the issue, to me. You’re starting to treat “your users” differently than other users.
One of your users spent part of yesterday following me around and replying to me in a few different threads demanding that I take part in an argument I’d already addressed and then told them I wasn’t interested in continuing. Is that harassment? No, because it’s your users.
There’s this massive thread accusing PugJesus of all kinds of stuff: That he’s pro-Israel, that he’s a terminally online weirdo loser, that he never backs up anything he says, that he bans anyone who criticizes Israel, that he’s transphobic and doesn’t respect people’s pronouns, that he’s a twat, and so on. That’s completely fine, because he’s a “lib.” He’s the enemy. We can all yell at him, insult him, nothing needs to be justified, it’s a big hateful groupthink that defines things in terms of enemies (and a crucial part is twisting things around so that someone can be defined as a horrifying enemy in some way, which is why they’re pretending he is pro-Israel) and in-groups. Why is that all okay? Because he’s not one of your users. He’s the out-group, he is a liberal apparently.
In some forums, that kind of thing is disallowed. If you make personal attacks or insults, you get mod action. If you pretend someone said something they didn’t say to stir up shit, you get mod action. Ada’s description from a different domain was actually pretty good: There are certain types of respect that are not “a reward for good behaviour.” They’re just what we need to do for each other to keep the community on the rails. On most of Lemmy, the mod action for violating that kind of respect is overtly one-sided; if you’re in the in-group, it’s allowed, if you’re aiming it towards the in-group, then you get mod action because it’s a crisis.
Does that one-sided moderation, and officially badjacketing people as “Zionists” and genocide supporters and then going full-bore against them as a result, mean you’re tankies? Not in the literal sense, no. But you’re starting to act like the tankie instances, all of a sudden, when it seems to me like you used to be chill and sensible. You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking and moderating against anyone who had some different kind of politics, and mobbing up against them like Lord of the Flies. Now it seems like you are, and it happened (from my POV at least) all of a sudden out of nowhere, and it’s weird to me.
(Yes, I know what badjacketing means. I placed it in the sentence the way I did to make a point.)
Multithread crashout with enough paragraphs typed to fill a novella. This level of drama might be peak Lemmy thought crime policing. Peak liberal vs tankie on a topic unrelated to it. This thread (an argument loadstone which was irresistible) and the time ya’ll have spent in is incredible. That’s just imo, of course.
But keep going, I’m loving reading all this!
It’s like drama in academia: It starts to become this titanic bitter struggle which causes people to lose their goddamned minds and fight to the ends of the earth, precisely because the stakes are so small.
Well fucking said!
If I had more time and less depression, I’d start making YouTube videos breaking down this drama. Someone is gonna make a lot of money on that idea.
I legit thought about sending Strange Æons a message summarizing some of the main drama. It might be too reddit-y for her to be into, but I agree. Bottom line, it’s a fuckin’ gold mine.
That’s a good idea, need someone Lemmy-brained like she’s Tumblr-brained tho. Those people are forged, the community might still be too young.
You said this like it’s some kind of gotcha. It isn’t. Of course we’re going to protect our communities and users above and before other communities and users. At the end of the day, the health and wellbeing of dbzer0 should always be prioritized over the wellbeing of other instances by the mods and admins of our instance. That’s their duty to our users. You’re welcome to complain about that as much as you want, but that’s always going to be how I operate, at least, and I doubt any of the other mods or admins feel all that differently.
Protecting users from being harassed is the same as admins being weird people like .ml, apparently.
My favorite part is where you yourself admitted that I only downvoted comments I disagreed with, and yet both you and the Dbzer0 admins counted that as ‘harassment’.
Seven months of blatant slander, on the other hand, is just being a good comrade, according to dbzer0.
I mean tbf both of those are at least true
Heh I would think the bigger insult here on the feddi is that any of us are normal or well adjusted.
That’s your framing of the situation.
An alternative perspective is that the “pronouns cannot relate to imaginary creatures” is gender gatekeeping.
Drag was potentially trolling, but if nobody ever took the bait, nothing would have happened.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162
People brought justifications
Direct attacks are usually removed
I’m am going to be honest with you, I didn’t expect you to make this kind of comments
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20291493
Also, not sure why it’s not okay for dbzer0 to have a “our users” stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as “losers”
Good God. Okay, you asked for a response, here is it.
Using unusual pronouns was never the issue. It’s insanely common on blahaj for people to use neopronouns, and nobody bats an eye, because it’s normal. Pretending that being trans is equivalent to being a dragon (along with things like encouraging other users to self-harm, because of course this person did, because they are a troll and trying to be cruel to trans people) was the issue.
I cannot fathom how me repeating this for the nth time here is somehow going to make a difference, but whatever. You said something, I’ve replied. Can I go now?
Fair enough, there were some things that people justified, I shouldn’t have said “nothing” I guess. My argument is that there was a ton of stuff that was not justified, and some of the criticism once we got down to actual events motte-and-baileyed its way back from “he is a Zionist who deletes any criticism of Israel and a transphobe” and into “he gets mad arguing about politics and I don’t like that”, and some of it was literal just random abuse and cursing at him, not connected to any type of event or behavior at all.
Direct attacks in some contexts are removed. In other contexts, they’re allowed. That was my point. I’m actually fine with either policy, broadly speaking, but starting to forbid mild attacks towards friends and allow wild, profane, fact-free attacks towards enemies is a bad road to start to go down. That was much more the core of my point.
Pretending that PJ is pro-Israel is flagrantly dishonest. It’s also working very well. That’s a good example. Not sure what your complaint here is, I don’t really want to dig through the thread picking out stuff that’s objectively untrue, but that’s one example if you’re saying you don’t believe me about it.
I addressed this already, I never said people who care about politics are losers. I am a person that argues way too much on and off the internet about politics. My point was that for lemmy.ml to suddenly feel like caring about and arguing about politics on the internet makes someone a weirdo is just another example of the sort of tribal “it’s fine with I do it, but when you do it it is evidence you’re some kind of terrible thing” thinking that I am trying to call out.
Satisfied? I’ve already talked about literally all of this, I’m not interested in going back and forth about it just without end. But sure, there’s your response if you want one.
https://sopuli.xyz/post/30935971/18041817
As said in the other comment, it’s good that you clarified the “loser comment”
Beyond that, we discussed most of the stuff in the other comment
Just to reiterate,
“He was (potentially) trolling, but if noone took the bait…”
Ah yes, let’s just excuse the inciting actions and blame the targets of harassment!
You are a victim blaming moron, and you’ve made it perfectly clear right there.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162/17029381
People can use whatever pronouns they want and anyone pitching a fit about it are the ones who deserve scrutiny as far as I’m concerned.
Drag always rubbed me the wrong way, always ready to jump right to calling people tankies without much interesting conversation to be had.
If someone is trolling I’m going to ban them when they violate an actual rule, like telling people to kys, because anything else opens up the field for people like Pug to declare who is and isn’t trans based on if they like their pronoun choice.
Responding to PugJesus below me as I can’t interact due to their ban:
From my POV, you are pitching a fit over the pronouns by harping on about ‘not believing dragons are real’ - heres an example of you misgendering with ‘his’ while doing so. That invites extra scrutiny.
in this thread the person was banned for saying “I don’t think it’s an unfair line to draw. We draw it at what’s real and what’s not. Gender as a spectrum is real.”
you replied in one comment saying
What I conclude from this:
When you are talking about belief in dragons what you are really doing is using that in as a stand-in to say ’ only genders that are ‘real’ are acceptable to use’. That is gatekeeping.
here you are doing it he same routine to a trans woman in that same thread. You called her a child and insane for saying ‘you don’t get to question someone’s identity’.
I don’t believe in any magical creatures, but drag and anyone else should be able to use whatever pronouns they want because fuck gender.
Indeed.
I never said Drag wasn’t trans. I never said that Drag’s neopronoun choice was invalid. I always made an effort to use Drag’s pronoun. But lying is the only tool you have, isn’t it?
Would it be transphobic to say “I’ll use she/her for you but I don’t believe you’re a woman, as that’s against the objective reality of biology”?
I was specifically and repeatedly accused of not using Drag’s pronouns, including in the comment I responded to, since that’s an easier sell to most people to slander someone on.
Women exist. Dragons do not.
Exist in what sense? Again, is it rooted in something like biology or social assignment in your view, or is it based on the existence of people self-identifying as such? If the former, why do you not take issue with singular they? If the latter, what’s the difference between that and “dragon”? Would you argue there are no people who genuinely use “dragon” as their pronoun? There are certainly quite a few who use “fae/faer”, so it wouldn’t be a significant leap.
I disagree with your framing. I think you’re being dishonest in your framing on what caused the mod actions. At the end of the day we and Ada are beholden to our respective users, and as it turns out, they think those were the right choices.
And yes, we’re going to take action about harassment of our own users, that’s the duty of an instance admin. I want to point out however that all this brouhaha is over a 7days ban. Literally the mildest of punishments ever, and you’re at the point of pondering what’s rotten in the whole instance and writing walls of text, over a short term “chill out” ban.
I can’t count how many times someone on or off blahaj tried to explain that Dragonrider’s trolling, encouraging other users to suicide, things like that, were the core of the issue. If you really want to join Ada in pretending that there’s a whole Lemmy population that’s just frothing at the mouth to dictate to other people what pronouns they can and can’t use, and that was what got them heated up about Dragonrider and nothing about any of the other stuff, I won’t stop you. I started to dig up old messages to put together a timeline, but then I realized I don’t care and I think the issue is pretty clear enough already.
This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.
Personally, I don’t care about the ban itself. I actually agree with you that PugJesus making a whole community to whine about how unfair it is is kind of childish. I care more about the bullying and fact-free mentality, that big thread with people making up nonsense about the target of the day.
Any admins should act upon harassment of one of their users, especially if the admins of the harassers don’t.
Isn’t that the concept of !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com since its inception?
Honestly, I think calling what’s ongoing “bullying” is kinda strange. If anything we wanted to cool the situation down.
I would rather show me which admins are more centered on what every rando on the internet thinks. Then I can point you to someone about to have a burnout.
Quotes from the thread:
And so on. There’s plenty more, that’s just what I had patience to dig up.
Those aren’t the only two options lol. I’m just saying that “Our users/tribe love that we always take the side of our users/tribe no matter the facts of the situation!” isn’t the good justification that it sounds like, when you phrase it differently than I just did.
Not sure which thread you mean, but If you think people expressing their low opinions about someone is “bullying”, then, well you haven’t experienced bullying. And also, what the hell do you expect of dbzer0 admins to do about people expressing such opinions? You want us to go around protecting the people you like from public opinion? Like, this is a legit absurd argument path.
It’s easy to look right when fighting against strawmen.
You just asked for examples of bullying, so I provided. What did you expect me to bring up, was someone sneaking through his window and punching him in the face? I’m not sure what other than personal insults could be meant by that. If it was bringing up examples of wrong things he did, then sure. Some people did that, some people lied about it (claiming he’d said one thing when he’d said the exact opposite), some people actively refused to provide any evidence but just threw insults at him and then peaced out. The first thing, I’d have no problem with, the others I feel like are worth worrying about at least a little bit.
I want you to stop protecting the people you like from public opinion. I’m completely fine with everyone just being able to have their say, although maybe certain levels of personal abuse shouldn’t be tolerated. But it’s very clearly one-sided. The dbzer0 people have been describing downvoting as “abuse,” so yes, I would say aiming extensive cursing and personal insults at someone and accusing them of things they didn’t do can be “bullying,” or at least something that’s worthy of mods weighing in on it, like they would pounce instantly if someone said something about Sam Altman or something.
Edit: Actually, maybe a better way to explain it: Go back to every one of the quotes I listed about PugJesus. If people came into a dbzer0 thread and said the exact same types of things about Ada, would that be okay? Or would it be a problem that required mod / admin attention?
That’s what bugs me about it, it’s the blatant tribalism of it. You permabanned a trans person just recently because they tried (again, for the thousandth time) to explain what the issue was with Dragonrider, and you didn’t like that, so ban for “pissy.” They’re not in the club, so fuck them. Everyone got all up in arms about ban reason “tankie,” but you’re fine with a comment being removed for the reason “shut the fuck up, liberal” (I actually 100% agree with removing the actual underlying comment – my point is that the slurs are starting to be celebrated, and only go one way, and that’s not a good thing.)
One of your people has just recently invented a new slur (“slopper”) to use to attack people they disagree with as they are being banned. I have no idea the context or what it means, although I can guess.
You get the idea. I don’t want to go back and forth about extensively. I have no idea how much of this is you, or the admin team, or whoever. I actually think probably most of what I see as most worrying is not coming from the admin team. But the culture shift is alarming to me. It’s all about attack, slurs, new fun insults. We need to protect “our users” against downvotes. Other users, on other instances, who got rando-banned, well, fuck them, they’re not “ours,” so who cares.
You get the idea. Maybe not. Anyway, that’s what I think about it.
Why yes, we do tolerate people badmouthing Ada, dessalines, nutomic, and even our own admins. Hell I’ve personally tolerated dozens of angry hexbears trying to bully myself in my own thread in my own comm. We do indeed walk the walk.
There’s no “tribalism” here, no matter how much you keep repeating it. In all honestly it reads to me you’re more upset people are not sufficiently polite in disagreement. Anarchists can and will be rude, especially towards people like PJ routinely but politely calling them “nazis” for not engaging in the electoralism farce. Nobody is under any onus to remain polite to spare your feelings, nor does this make is a “tribe” because we tend to attract anarchists who feel the same way about liberals.
Fuck I don’t even know at this point what your problem even is, that we attract like-minded people in our instance? We don’t want to be lemmy.world for a reason and if you want that, well lemmy.world already exists.
Seriously, We’re not going to go around policing people for rudeness. This is absurd and will not work whatsoever.
Absolutely, you should not. People should be able to say what they want, if that somehow wasn’t clear. What I was saying was that it’s very silly to ban people for criticizing your decisions in clear and rational language[1], or for their politics, or for very tenuous claims of “ableism” if you just kind of don’t like the content of what they have to say[2], or to call downvotes “abuse” and try to protect certain ones of your communities against getting downvotes by literally banning anyone who tries to give one to the content… but then, when the target is outside the kid-gloves safe space, turn loose this massive drama-cannon with wild insults and accusations and say “Yes! All good, our admins will join in in fact!” and then now hide behind this thing of “Oh ho that’s just the wild west of the ol’ internet for ya, free speech ya know” that you would never put up with if someone tried to, for example, give YOU a downvote or a dissenting comment[3], because that’s abusive and they’re a troll now.
This whole thing originated because you’ve been slinging around bans for people who don’t get with the program you want them to get with or say things to you that you don’t like. I didn’t come to you whining to ask you to stop anyone being mean to me, I actually got involved because you wanted PugJesus to stop being mean to your comments and posts because he’s not allowed. I’m much more in favor of people being able to have their say, I mostly object to the banhammering side, I’m just now poking at the hypocrisy of it.
Up to you though. You’ve clearly decided, I’m just repeating at this point, so cheers I guess.
Context:
From a more recent thread
Slopper is a slur? Lmao
Apparently the only real form of bullying is downvoting
Downvoting a divide by zero user is apparently harassment.
People say this stuff and then claim that we’re doing bad faith takes. Go figure.
As we know, bad faith is when you defend yourself with evidence and good faith is when you make shit up to slander people and groups.
They are very smart.
That’s literally the reason you cited, and the admin ban, for all of this
If you feel that statement is in bad faith, maybe you should have a talk with Unruffled about their wanton banning of users for “mod abuse” over users downvoting them.
Why, yes s it is bad faith to misrepresent the cause of the mod action and then double down on it.
In any case, feel free to open a yptb post if you’re do certain our cause was trivial.
If you think that’s misrepresenting the situation, you either don’t know the situation or are complacent in it. Either way makes you a poor admin. Hence why I have blocked your instance.
So you keep saying. I don’t just think that, I know that. And given that it’s very easy for people to call us out on it officially and yet nobody seems to want to, I’m fairly confident we’ve taken the right decision. Unlike other instances, we welcome criticism of admin actions as we don’t think we’re infallible.
Can’t complain about the mod and admin abuse on your instance when the mods and admins doing the abuse banned people from the community used to report mod/admin abuse.
Do you even check your own mod logs?
It’s a bit of a conflict of interest if the place used to publicly report mod/admin abuse keeps shutting down any and all reports of your own mods and admins.