I saw a post earlier (not on the fediverse), about a trans woman who had a date with a cis man who was pretty clearly into her, fliriting and stuff, but then as soon as she told him she was trans the guy immediately acted different, said he wasn’t into her and just wanted to be friends, etc. The poster was obviously upset by that and was trying to vent about it online in a women’s community who claim to be trans inclusive, but so many of the replies were about how he wasn’t transphobic, how he was such a good guy for giving her the bare minimum respect after learning she was trans, how its not transphobic to not be attracted to trans people, etc. That’s also not even what the poster was saying, she just wanted support after a shitty date, something which the community is perfectly capable of doing when a cis woman is seeking it.
But also like the guy was attracted to her! He just immediately changed his mind upon learning she was trans, which is literally just transphobia, holy shit. And almost all the supportive people in the comments or anyone saying that were getting piled on.
I already know the majority of cis people don’t see us as actually being our gender/sex, but it still fucking sucks everytime I see something like that that reminds me of that fact so starkly.
Edit: The number of cis people coming in to this thread and doing the exact same fucking thing I’m complaning about in this post is wild holy shit. Like congrats on not having any ability to read the room l guess lmao.
It’s okay to have dating preferences, but it can be really isolating when you’re in that preferential minority. I think we have to be careful with expressing that in spaces that include cis folks, because it can absolutely fester into transphobia, but it’s basically understandable to be discouraged about stuff like this. Overall, I wish there was more leeway and empathy toward trans people who express they’re lonely without defensive cis people interpreting that as “trans people insist that you must be attracted to them or you’re a transphobe” (which most of us aren’t saying), but we’re definitely not there yet. And while acknowledging that, maybe we do need to have thicker skin when some trans allies aren’t attracted to us. Beauty’s in the eye of the beholder, and there’s someone for everyone.
Another example I think is more apt is a Pew Research study I saw a while back that said majorities of liberals acknowledged trans people were a marginalized group, and majorities also acknowledged that we should have more rights, yet most of the same people in that category believed that gender is determined by sex at birth. And I guess it’s up for debate on the degree to which those people are genuinely allies. (Edit: Source!)
I think a lot of this stuff is generational and once social acceptance increases to the point where more people transition younger on average, and also once young cis people are brought up in that era of social acceptance and positive exposure, we’ll see more genuine acceptance that trans people are their gender identity, but only future generations may benefit. But just because most these days don’t see trans people as their identified gender, there are definitely the wonderful ones who do, and maybe we should be screening for those people instead of fixating on the ones who aren’t interested.
Honestly the issue wasn’t as much the date as it was the replies to the post though. Like it was shitty of the guy to reject a girl he was otherwise entirely attracted to because of the fact she was trans, but it was just the lack of empathy in the comments and the way they defended the guy rather than expressing sympathy that really struck me the wrong way.
I do think not wanting to date any trans person is transphobic though imo. All of the common arguments people make to justify it are things that either aren’t true of every trans person or are things that can also apply to cis people of the same gender too. Its obviously not “you have to be attracted to me or you’re transphobic” but if you’re willing to completely claim you’d not be attracted to a single member of a minority it comes from internalized bigotry imo. The same thing would be true for people of color or any other marginalized group too. I feel like the situation in the post is pretty similar to if a man was on a date with a women who was white passing, and once he found out she wasn’t actually white was suddenly not attracted to her. I couldn’t read that as any way but racism the same way I can’t read the man she was on a date with going from very attracted to no attraction on a dime as anything but transphobia.
I see what you mean, and hope my reply didn’t come off wrong. I was just saying it’s very difficult to broach this conversation with cis people without statements being misinterpreted and feelings being hurt, and was trying to steelman both sides of the issue.
Back when I was on Reddit, I remember seeing exactly the types of posts you’re talking about, and then the dumpster fire that would ensue in the comments. And this would finally culminate in a another suspiciously timed post titled something like “It’s okay to not be attracted to trans people” that would get hundreds or even thousands of bipartisan upvotes, along with a lot of trans-bashing, insinuations of trans people being pushy and predatory, people posting memes that they’re sorting by controversial, all with the original context long forgotten by the discourse it grew into.
I’m so happy not to be on Reddit anymore. Like many things, I don’t think this kind of discussion really lends itself very well to social media in our current climate.
Yeah no you’re good I didn’t take your reply in a bad way don’t worry, I was 100% just continuing to vent haha. And yeah it was a reddit post lmao (I basically only use redlib to read a couple of the trans communities and there was a different post in one of them venting about it that made me see it in the first place). It is definitely something where going outside of actual trans spaces and reading discussions about trans issues, even in “trans inclusive” ones, really sucks I think, I try not to do it often but it’s hard to resist sometimes even when I know it will just make me feel bad lol.
Its impossible for people to just be supportive of someone having a bad time if they have OPINIONS about the situation at hand. Like a vein about to burst if they don’t get a chance to lay out their exact beliefs in fine detail.
Its ok to be like “fuck that BS girl his loss” and leave it there.
Yeah exactly like this is a post about a girl having a shitty experience with a guy, they get posts like this all the fucking time. It’s practically the point of the community! Only on this one did the comments turn into lecturing the girl for expressing frustration at her date and dating in general though, mysteriously.
Everyone knows why and should call it out too. It’s bigotry towards trans people plain and simple. People expect us to be ok with being treated worse. That’s bullshit!
He didn’t see her as a woman, he saw her as a woman* and all his attention went to that asterisk.
Most people are really weird about sex even if they’re open and supportive of others.
He’s wrapped up in all those views passed onto him by a shitty society instead of just having the time of his life.
I hope we create a society where people like him live in regret about how weird they could’ve gotten and all the fun they missed. Til then, I prefer that she’s safe from transphobic regret which our society lets people get away with hurting us.
I hope this doesn’t come off as argumentative, as that is not how it’s meant, but the way I see it, it wasn’t that he didn’t like her, or was transphobic, it’s just that he has preferences. This isn’t a crime. We all have preferences. Be they height, weight, cultural, tradition, what-have-you… this doesn’t make us anti-things outside of our prefered choices.
For example: I like pumpkins. Love them as decorations, I think they’re pretty, I know they’re heathy as a food and good for nature, however… I don’t like to eat them at all. I don’t like the texture of pumpkin pie, I don’t like the flavor at all. It’s just not to my taste.
Am I anti-pumpkin? Not even in the slightest.
The point is, from what you said, he was kind to her, and wasn’t offended or being offensive TO her, he just wasn’t into her situation at all.
Maybe this helps to understand it better?
Again, absolutely no offense intended.
But what about “being trans” can immediately make someone less attractive? Nothing about her physically changed, other than her revealing a medical detail about her past pretty much. It wasn’t about her not being able to get pregnant since the date didn’t mention that as a reason why, and there’s no indication of whether or not the girl had any kind of bottom surgery.
Edit: Also check out this other comment in the thead for a more detailed answer, I assumed you were that person responding at first so I treated my reply as basically a follow-up meaning its not as fleshed out.
Regarding the edit: That’s totally fair. I understand.
As far as the rest. Yeah. I see the point. However, I don’t think it was that he thought of her as less attractive, just outside of his wheelhouse. Take for example, my point about preferences, someone can be into people taller than them. It’s their thing. So if they need soomeome shorter, they may still find said person gorgeous, but the height is a deal-breaker.
With this, it might just be that he doesn’t wan to be with someone that was once the same gender as him. We really can’t know why- but I’d have to agree with a few of the responses- I really don’t think I’d accuse h of being anti-trans. From the info given, he wasn’t offensive or rude, just surprised and kindly backed out.
But that feeling of not wanting to be with a person because they’re trans is transphobia. He might not be outwardly bigoted, but I’m fairly confident he has some level of internalized transphobia. The only way that sort of thing can happen is to believe that fundamentally trans people are different than cis people of the same gender in a negative way. Like the other comments mentioned, the same thing is true for other marginalized groups. A man going from attracted to a white passing woman into losing that attraction upon realizing she isn’t white is because of racism.
That’s simply just not true though.
Transphobia doesn’t mean “refuses to be romantically with tranksfolk”. It means basically that a belief exists that consists of negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender, or transsexual people, or just transness in general.
People are not obligated to be in a relationship with a trans person just because they are the preferred gender. Again, they are allowed preferences. And while they can be kind and supportive of transgenderism, they don’t have to include them in their romantic preferences.
“Transgenderism” Eww… A person being trans isn’t an “ism”. It’s a part of the human condition/being human, not some belief people choose throughout their life.
Yeah I considered mentioning that too but didn’t think it was worth it lmao
That’s not what I’m saying though, like my response to the other comment said a hypothetical person who has never been attracted to a trans person wouldn’t be transphobic. The internalized transphobia comes into play if they are attracted to a trans person, and then lose that attraction once learning they’re trans. Those are very different scenarios, and one is transphobic. No trans person is trying to force cis people to date us, that’s stupid.
It’s not so easy to define though. Gender reassignment has gotten so good that it’s impossible to tell. Which is an amazing thing! However, there are people that have preferences based on criteria they set that determine and influence both who they find attractive, and what situations they are willing to accept in a mate. For instance, I personally don’t like country music. Am I a southphobe? A redneckist? No, but I don’t want to be in a relation with someone that listens to it. It’s not my thing. Yet I am not hateful towards those that enjoy it and in-fact, have many friends that love it.
Now imagine I’m on a date, and it comes up during dinner that they love country music. It’s going to be a no for me. That doesn’t make me hateful.
That some people don’t want their mate to have been assigned the same gender as them isn’t transphobia. It’s just a preference. He doesn’t want to deal with her having once been the same gender as him. That is HIS preference. And it is okay. If he is not hateful, or disrespectful, I’d say it’s not transphobia.
But I’m not the authority on the subject. I’m just trying to add some nuance to the topic. Nothing more.
But what about being trans specifically makes someone potentially less attractive. With country music its a difference in music taste. What fundamental thing do trans people have that causes a loss of attraction. The only thing you keep saying is because of their asab. That’s what’s transphobic, it is treating a trans person as different than a cis person because of the fact they’re trans.
IDK what else I can say to drive home the fact that seeing a trans person as unattractive because of how they were assigned at birth is just a woke way of saying they aren’t really their gender, which is the most basic type of transphobia.
Maybe he’s not into gock and assumed she had one? Really him being into her shouldn’t have changed until they talked about bed stuff, not right when she mentioned she trans, cause he doesn’t know what’s between her legs. If not that then the only thing I could think of is transphobia. Could also just be assumptions and ignorance.
Plus being into a trans girl doesn’t automatically make you not a transphobe. Did the guy say he was an “Ally”? He might not have been.
It wasn’t the guy as much as all the replies from a bunch of cis women, tons of who were self-described “allies”. They’re the ones who really annoyed me, since they were minimizing what the guy did or trying to justify it because “it’s not transphobic to not want to date a trans woman”, or “maybe he wants kids”, etc
Yeah that’s annoying and concerning. If someone is attracted to a trans woman and isn’t interested after they finds out she’s trans for that reason then yeah its transphobic. And also I know tons of trans people that want kids. Plenty of trans people can still have kids and even if they can’t you could always adopt if you wanted to make it work.
The problem with that is that cis people are weirdly obsessed with having “biological children”, which is absurd to me.
Some trans people can still have biological children.
Legitimately asking here, but is it really considered transphobia to not be interested in dating a trans person?
I don’t know, maybe I’m a horrible person, but I’ve always consider dating preferences to be 100% outside of the whole transphobia, racism, etc spectrum. Those things apply to your ability to treat people like people, be nice and respectful, interact, become friends, etc.
But who you romantically involve yourself with is sacrosanct and you can apply whatever reasoning you want to that. Maybe you won’t date anyone that has mismatched eyes or brown hair, or whatever other arbitrary reasoning matters to you, so long as you’re otherwise polite and respectful of people, that’s your prerogative.
Now the rejected person is also totally allowed to be upset and consider it their loss and vent to others about the experience, but the other person isn’t a ‘transphobe’, assuming they were otherwise not hostile or transphobic to trans people outside of a dating context (and weren’t hateful in their rejection either). Or at least that’s how I see it, but maybe that just makes me transphobic (and I guess racist because I believe you can apply the same logic to not wanting to date someone based on skin color)
OP had a good example, I’ll quote them: “The same thing would be true for people of color or any other marginalized group too. I feel like the situation in the post is pretty similar to if a man was on a date with a women who was white passing, and once he found out she wasn’t actually white was suddenly not attracted to her. I couldn’t read that as any way but racism the same way I can’t read the man she was on a date with going from very attracted to no attraction on a dime as anything but transphobia.”
If you’re attracted to someone and then find out they’re trans and then suddenly aren’t attracted to them that’s because of transphobia.
I mean I could be not attracted to people with a mole on their stomach and not find out about that until later even if I was initially attracted to them. I could also be attracted to someone until I found out they were being targeted by a stalker and then lose my attraction to them because of that.
You’re saying that you cannot choose to not be interested in a trans person if they successfully pass and therefore you don’t know in advance without that being transphobic, despite a) who you are romantically attracted to is a deeply personal choice and b) being in a relationship with someone means their life heavily effects yours. People avoid others romantically for life difficulties that aren’t even their fault all the time (nasty exes, legal or money trouble, etc). Wanting to avoid potential issues associated with being trans, even though none of those are the trans person’s fault is the same thing.
I think you’re going to have a really hard sell to lay claim to what people are and aren’t allowed to feel about potential partners. You might get people to give lip service to it, but I doubt you’ll get people to have true buy in to saying they aren’t allowed to feel certain things in regards to potential romantic partners. That’s a pretty extreme take in my opinion.
I think the issue her is you not understanding what transphobia is.
Yeah like the other reply said, I wouldn’t consider a hypothetical person who just hasn’t ever been attracted to a trans person transphobic. I genuinely don’t believe that actually exists outside of aro/ace people who experience no attraction though, since trans people can 100% pass as their gender and live completely stealth, so statistically it feels unlikely that someone could avoid ever feeling attracted to a trans person. If someone (like the original posters date) was attracted to a trans person up until the point they realized they were trans though, that’s 100% at the very least internalized transphobia.
Edit: And because trans people or people of color or any other group are so diverse it feels disingenuous to believe a person could genuinely be completely devoid of attraction to that group without some underlying bigotry. Even the examples you gave of innocuous criteria, I find it truly hard to believe that a person could honestly lose all attraction to someone because of their eye color or hair color, who they’d otherwise find attractive.
