My parents always used to sit in the smoking sections.
And they always smoked a few cigarettes during the meal.
I was so happy when they finally banned the cigarettes in restaurants. My parents were pissed.
The crazy thing about this is that I did too. Then I was old enough to go to restaurants on my own. I also smoked, but you know what I did? I fucking went outside like a godamn person. I don’t smoke anymore but the idea of subjecting everyone else to my bullshit isn’t okay.
As a non-smoker (cigarettes) who grew up as smoking was pushed outdoors, the one thing I feel like I truly missed out on is the social aspect of it. If you walk out front with a cigarette and/or a lighter, you’ve already got a conversation starter with literally anyone else standing outside (and then by extension, anyone else that they might be there with).
Just a massive tool for meeting people that I feel like I missed out on completely. Not sure if it’s enough to regret not smoking, but still…
As a smoker, I have had so many amazing conversations with fellow smokers. Back when they used to have those outdoor boxes outside of hospitals, I’d always meet someone interesting in there when I had a reason to be at a hospital.
I met an old dude one time that was nearly blown in half in Vietnam. He was so cheerful and joked about it, which blew my mind. We talked for three days. I was there with my ex for her uncle and he was there for his wife. He said, “It hurts getting blowed up, but not as bad as someone randomly puttin’ uh fanger up ya butt when you’re froggin’.” Then he looked around and said, “Lord, I better watch my mouth. My wife’s sister would drop dead if she knew her sister put her fangers in my butt and made her food with those hands. She’s one uh them Bible thumpers that would sleep on a pew if she thought it would make her look pious. She’d never leave the church. She’s on her way to hell like the rest of us but, bless her heart, she don’t even know it.”
Crude, I know, but he had me dying laughing. Had this real thick accent that made everything sound funny. He was also very insightful and intelligent. When it was just me and him out there he was so crude. The second someone else would show up he’d drop it. It’s crazy how you can make a connection with someone in such a short time and get to know their “at home” self.
Nowadays the smokers are all hiding behind a bush somewhere far away from each other.
I’m standing outside freezing right now for a cigarette because I don’t smoke in my home. I did when I was younger and it just ruined everything. It’s nice to repair something and it isn’t sticky inside when I open it up these days.
I gotta quit this crap. I really do.
You can do it, the first step to quitting is wanting to.
Same same same. My friend was bartending when they banned in New York and she smoked. I couldn’t believe how happy she was. She’s like, I’ll just go take a break, and not have to have this every second this whole bar.
As a non cigarette smoker who has tried them once or twice, the thought of taking a drag of a cigarette during a meal makes me want to vomit. It has to completely ruin the taste of whatever you are eating.
Afterwards, I understand. Maybe before if you’re trying to reduce your appetite or some shit. But during? That seems insane to me.
It has to completely ruin the taste of whatever you are eating
Smoking really destroys your tastebuds so it’s not like smoking while eating makes a huge difference anyway.
When you’ve been smoking for a few years, you lose a lot of your taste.
Reminder to anyone who still smokes: you smell like shit 100% to anyone you interact with.
And any place you still smoke in, whether your car or home, also smells like shit.
And to delivery drivers who smoke, the packages you deliver smell like shit, too!
Positive reinforcement works better for helping people quit :(
Especially when quitting smoking tanks a person’s dopamine levels. It takes weeks for the body to re-regulate production.
To anyone reading this who has quit/is quitting: congratulations! It’s tough, you have shown a force of willpower and should be proud of yourself.
Love, a fellow Canadian.
Edit:
As with other forms of punishment, aversive methods are generally less effective than positive approaches. It is more important to reward and praise desirable behaviors than to react negatively to unwanted ones. Encouraging a person’s ability to enjoy self-affirmation and self-pride will help them internalize healthy attributes and to become a person deserving of admiration…Shame doesn’t motivate prosocial behaviors; it fuels social withdrawal and low self-esteem.
Source: took some psych courses
&
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/longing-nostalgia/201705/why-shaming-doesnt-workPositive reinforcement is the act of adding either a reward for good behavour or a punishment for bad behavior.
It seems like both of you are doing that.
That’s not quite what positive reinforcement is but im not sciency enough to understand it either lol
I’ll paste Wikipedias explanation:In the behavioral sciences, the terms “positive” and “negative” refer when used in their strict technical sense to the nature of the action performed by the conditioner rather than to the responding operant’s evaluation of that action and its consequence(s). “Positive” actions are those that add a factor, be it pleasant or unpleasant, to the environment, whereas “negative” actions are those that remove or withhold from the environment a factor of either type. In turn, the strict sense of “reinforcement” refers only to reward-based conditioning; the introduction of unpleasant factors and the removal or withholding of pleasant factors are instead referred to as “punishment”, which when used in its strict sense thus stands in contradistinction to “reinforcement”. Thus, “positive reinforcement” refers to the addition of a pleasant factor, “positive punishment” refers to the addition of an unpleasant factor, “negative reinforcement” refers to the removal or withholding of an unpleasant factor, and “negative punishment” refers to the removal or withholding of a pleasant factor.
This usage is at odds with some non-technical usages of the four term combinations, especially in the case of the term “negative reinforcement”, which is often used to denote what technical parlance would describe as “positive punishment” in that the non-technical usage interprets “reinforcement” as subsuming both reward and punishment and “negative” as referring to the responding operant’s evaluation of the factor being introduced. By contrast, technical parlance would use the term “negative reinforcement” to describe encouragement of a given behavior by creating a scenario in which an unpleasant factor is or will be present but engaging in the behavior results in either escaping from that factor or preventing its occurrence, as in Martin Seligman’s experiment involving dogs learning to avoid electric shocks.
(These paragraphs are one after the other but I can’t figure out proper formatting)
If you mean formatting as one quote, you are missing the
on the empty line.> Line 1 > > Line 2Will show as:
Line 1
Line 2
I see
Thanks!
Interesting. I’ve never made that distinction between reinforcement and punishment.
Positive punishment is different from positive reinforcement. Shame is a punishment
Adding a shame or punishment is “positive” in the sense of the words positive and negative reinforcement.
Positive is adding to as a response:
- yelling at
- giving a thing
- shocking them when exhibiting a behavior
Negative is removing from as a response
- taking a thing
- removing a negative stimulus
- no longer shocking them for exhibiting the behavior
Punishment for bad behaviour is negative reinforcement.
In a non-technical sense, yes.
In a clinical/technical/literal/how words work sense, no.
Just looked into this, and yeah, you’re right. TIL. It’s pretty counterintuitive imo and I don’t think being told it’s wrong from a “how words work sense” is helping anyone, but you are correct and I was incorrect.
negative reinforcement is what punishment for undesired behavior is called.
positive reinforcement is rewarding when the desired behavior is exhibited.
edit: negative reinforcement requires forever conditioning and develops sick and twisted conditioners eventually. positive reinforcement takes longer to work but it doesn’t require forever conditioning. And rarely causes revolutionary acts.
Negative reinforcement is removing a thing when a behavior is exhibited.
Negative reinforcement is punishing for doing it rewarding for not doing
Positive reinforcement is rewarding for doing or punishing for not doing
I don’t think the person who started this was talking precisely though as positive reinforcement isn’t at all effective in getting someone to stop doing something
I’m not trying to convince someone to quit; that’s up to them to derive enough motivation to do so on their own.
I’m just pointing out that their disgusting habit affects everyone around them, if it’s not killing them through second-hand smoke.
I say this as someone who used to smoke 1–2 packs a day, and WISH that someone told me that I smelled as bad as I did. To me, smoking was never about impacting other people, so having known that, I would have at least been more mindful.
Positive reinforcement tends to work best, but people should never underestimate the power of “you smell like an old leather ashtray”
I know intellectually that’s true but in my cursed heart I really don’t want to be nice to people who are, like, barely approaching a reasonable standard of behavior. Not just with smoking. Like, littering, taking up too much space on the subway, whatever.
It’s just frustrating how everyone (including me some of the time, I’m sure) is just like an emotionally fragile toddler. Except if you’re not nice to them, they might shoot you.
edit: Thinking about it, my parents were always like “You don’t get rewarded for doing what’s expected of you”, so that’s probably why rewarding someone for doing the basics feels insane to me.
You don’t get rewarded for doing what’s expected of you
My parents said the same thing over 15 years ago, but this kind of shit just isn’t true. When you own your home or business, doing what’s expected of you results in your investments retaining or even increasing their value. That’s why the owner works 12 hours a day, and the homeowner fixes the broken windows.
When you’re just living or working somewhere but you don’t have a stake in it, what do you actually get out of your efforts? Communities of all types, big and small, are held together by the stake we have in them. If people have no stake, they have no reason to care. This is why you pay employees, and this is why parents should thank their kids for doing the damn chores.
Problem is so many people believe that you don’t deserve thanks for “doing what’s expected” while also refusing to allow young people the opportunity to become invested in their communities. This is why the social contract is destroyed and no one cares anymore. Why should they? The youth will never get to be part of their community the way we are. They will never benefit from it the way we do… Unless things change.
I guess what I took away from my upbringing is the rewards are intrinsic. You don’t get a cookie for cleaning your room, but now your room is clean. You don’t get $20 for passing your math test, but now you (hopefully) learned some math and don’t have to worry about it anymore.
The owner in your example is the same. His rewards are inherent to the action.
Covering someone with praise and rewards when they do stuff they’re supposed to do anyway I guess works, but seems unsustainable. If they’re only doing it for external validation, how are they going to feel when that’s absent?
Saying “thank you” for doing chores isn’t what I had in mind. It was an overly effusive “omg you did so good I’m so happy here’s a pony you didn’t throw your cigarettes on the ground! You’re such a good boy and very handsome!”
It’s so nasty when you get delivery and the food reeks of cigarettes.
One time it smelled of coppertone sunscreen which was wild and also off putting but in very different ways.
I got a coffee from Dunkin Donuts once that had been prepared by someone who had some kind of topical menthol cream all over their hands. That was the second most disgusting thing I’ve put in my mouth.
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Risotto with maggots in it.
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Yeah, I don’t tell that story very often.
I was born with a deviated septum, so I can’t smell much of anything, but cigarette is one thing I can smell… And I can confirm everything in your post.
My dad used to smoke. A lot. I once had to borrow his car for a week or so and couldn’t even drive it without flooding it with febreze and opening all the windows.
I used to have a co-worker who smoked so much that I (and others with more sensitive schnozzes) could tell if he’d been in a room in the past hour or more.
Even if you don’t care about your own health, you shouldn’t smoke for the sake of those around you.
Even more pleasant was being driven around in a car with dad smoking in the front seat while you’re behind him. Getting all that wind, smoke and ash in your face. Mmm. Or if it’s too cold he doesn’t wanna open the window really and basically just hotboxes me and my two brothers with nicotine. (This was 25+ years ago)
My eldest brother had asthma, so my parents were generally careful not to smoke around us. They had a dedicated room in the house for smoking so that the rest of the house would get less contaminated. Fortunately, this meant that they didn’t generally smoke in the car while driving us around. Also, my dad worked and/or commuted thirteen hours a day so I was mostly around my mom, who smoked a lot less.
The car borrowing I mentioned was years after my brother had moved across the country when my dad drove his car almost exclusively alone, so at least no one else (who wasn’t borrowing the car) was engulfed.
I’m sorry you had to suffer through that.
I agree but it is kinda nice being able to smell how stressed my boss is
Hey, if you smoke in you car, involuntary discount is applied on the price of your car in case you ever wanted to sell it! Because nobody wants to buy your stinkermobile.
It fucking sucks to get rid of the smell. It’s possible, but it’s not sweet.
Between the massive corporate wealth at stake and the millions of people literally addicted to the product, it’s hard now to imagine governments being able to ban them (and I lived through it).
And now we have vaping.
😭
Infinitely better for health and can only be used in private spaces or outside in most countries, would rather have some rights than none
How dare you impose your right to a thing that impacts no one else. I use vapour to scent my hous but how dare you use it for whatever you want. Under the guise of “quitting smoking for the betterment of your health”. spits
The world and it’s people needs to be how I want them to be. Only then can people be as tolerant as me.
This is Lemmy, sir. Your sarcasm isn’t going to be recognized here.
And of those that didn’t recognise it, half of them will be upset at you for highlighting their lack of social awareness which made them feel dumb. A portion of that group will say they did get it and, “No, you’re dumb!”
I don’t miss Reddit for much, but the humorless pearl clutching was way lower there at least.
Fun fact, no one cares if they use incense in their homes. It doesn’t affect others. Shit, you can even vape back home and no one will bat an eye. But since it is at very least annoying as fuck to sit in vape clouds, you are not allowed to do that.
It’s either the right to vape or the right to breathe clean air. You can’t have both.
Nothing about that fact is fun. It’s barely even mildly interesting or even a fact. The deceit! You should be ashamed.
We usually say fun fact for little children, so they would learn ;)
Okay, Golem.
Which the Aussie government banned, yet didn’t even touch cigarettes.
Didn’t ban them, just restricted who could sell them.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-24/vaping-ban-watered-down-greens-support/104016012
Essentially banned, now requiring a prescription to obtain any components and destroying small business
i through they also stopped the sale of cigs to anyone born after a cutoff date?
That was NZ I think and I also think it ended up on the back burner for some reason (I assume lobbying)
In smoking areas or outside only.
Lol I’m a school bus driver and a number of my colleagues vape on the fucking buses. They imagine they’re being super-secret about it - they’re somehow oblivious to the giant cloud of smoke each hit creates. Never underestimate the power of nicotine addiction to force people to relentlessly push the boundaries of where and when.
For people too young to remember, a lot of people were against smoking bans. The argument was pretty simple: “Why not let the market decide? If you want to go to a bar with no smokers, go to one that doesn’t allow smoking.” This was persuasive to a lot of people.
But I recall that non-smoking bars were extremely rare and I would always end up smelling like smoke every time I went to the bar. The problem was basically that going to a non-smoking bar would exclude any friends that smoked, so bars that became non-smoking were limiting themselves to only those patrons who didn’t smoke themselves and had no one in their group who did.
In hindsight, it betrays a fundamental problem with the “let the market decide” argument: there are situations where a small number of consumers with uncommon preferences can end up altering the whole market such that the majority of consumers are forced into un-ideal purchases. In the case of smoking at bars, it was actually better to say “Hey you few people who smoke, you’re kinda fucking up everything and we do actually need big government to step in and stop you from doing that.”
In the UK, most places had a non-smoking section (even restaurants 🤮) which was just part of the same room. No barriers or anything. The whole place stank no matter where you sat
Same in the US. And it wasn’t hard to get seated at a non-smoking table right next to the smoking section since there was no space between the tables or anything.
Airplanes were even worse.
I liked the no-smoking in bars even when i smoked. But pulling an archived post with 13 points and 100 comments to display prominent opinion is pretty fun times.
I actually started with the Dennis Miller rant on it because that’s what I thought of first, but then I realized Dennis Miller sucks and I don’t want to make people sit through that so I searched for someone else arguing it…
Dennis Miller’s downfall was swift and prophetic.
Opposite of how people with allergies changed the market. Sure maybe a group of people are without allergies but a very large group are with various allergies. If you broke them down they’d be smaller groups but it made more sense to just accommodate. And you can’t really tell someone with an allergy to just stop having the allergy. Though some restaurants will deny it should be part of their culture or unheard of.
And airplanes. People used to smoke in airplanes.
Also it was a freaking huge industry to kill all the whales in the sea.
Once upon a time it was common to mine ice.
The world can be changed.
Would you believe that they had a smoking section on airplanes? That is, you could smoke in the back of the plane, but not forward of a certain row number.
Makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it?
With how hvac works when setup correctly it actually does.
It still isn’t ideal and I’m very happy it isn’t a thing anymore.
a freaking huge industry to kill all the whales in the sea
One of the wildest aspects of this was that they did it from fucking rowboats. I’ve never understood why the whales didn’t just leisurely swim away from that bullshit.
Because they didn’t know how the harpoons worked until they had been harpooned.
Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, Colonel Aureliano Buendía was to remember that distant afternoon when his father took him to discover ice.
– Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
Ah yes, the smoking section, and the second-hand-smoking section in restaurants
as a young person who hates cigarettes and recently went to las vegas for the first time, it was wild walking around the casinos thinking “this is what everywhere used to smell like, its incredibly disgusting!” I’m glad we managed to stop smoking indoors, probably one of the greatest advances of society.
There’s an enclosed area in the Las Vegas airport where people can smoke while using the slot machines. If you ever find yourself here and are curious what it’s like to live with parents who chain smoke, visit this awful little piece of hell and you will satisfy that curiosity.
I went to a casino for my 21st birthday and the stench of cigarettes in the non-smoking section was enough for me to never want to return. That and it was almost entirely penny slots and I got bored of those as soon as the novelty of actually gambling wore off
Yeah, I remember the tail end of this. Dedicated smoking rooms, or smoking carriages on trains. Or cafés and restaurants that would promote themselves as places where you could freely smoke.
Thankfully that’s all gone now.
Hear me out though:
Smoking train carriage…
…for weed
How about not smoking at all?
Smoking means you’re exposing a pair of very sensitive organs to air that is relatively densely saturated with burnt particulates for prolonged periods of time. It doesn’t matter what you’re smoking, it’ll always be bad.
Moreover, it’s not a very efficient delivery system, as a lot of the working “stuff” gets burned and rendered useless.
You want weed? Go make tea or edibles. Much better in every way.
When my lungs give out I’m getting gills.
If you as much as had a coffee out you used to have to immediately wash everything you were wearing down to your socks. Turns out, jeans don’t automatically stink if you cross your front door with them. Who knew.
It’s been a while, but that tobacco smell on clothes was so weird. It smelled sweaty even if it wasn’t, like you had been jogging through a house fire. So gross.
Tbf, that was not only smoke from cigarettes. Combustion engines and furnaces used to add a lot of smoke, too, before the use of catalysators and filters became compulsory.
Yep, pop down to a classic car show and stand behind a running MK1 Escort
That’s what the rest of the world smelled like
I’m sure that made it worse, but I used to live somewhere that only enacted an indoors ban in the late 2010s. It was the cigarettes.
You are right but just imagine that plus tetra ethyl lead.
Oh and asbestos. Lots of asbestos.
Just want to add that the biggest objection that I have heard from coworkers and friends about making recreational Marijuanna legal is the smell. Walk around a downtown in any state it is legal for recreation in and the smell is everywhere.
Non-users don’t want to smell burning weed or tabacco as they go about their day.
I’m with you, Marijuana smells just a awful to me (a non-smoker)
Much worse than the smell of cigarettes, imo
Yeah. I guess I don’t really gaf that my neighbor smokes weed however I do hate that as a person who doesn’t smoke weed I can’t go into my garage or anywhere in my back yard without feeling smelling hardcore weed smell and my garage just accumulates it.
I live in a legal state. You get whiffs once in a while, which is more funny than it is annoying to me.
There are times when the smell lingers, and that’s pretty gross.
But other than that, it’s not as choking/poisonous as the cloud of cigarette and car fumes.
The car fumes are causing more cancer than the smoking. And is non majority directed at the user. We’ve known that for just as long as cigarettes being bad, yet people turned their head because they had good lobbying.
Gas powered cars are worse than cigarettes. We could have switched to majority electric cars in the 70s, and all the gas stations would have just been electric chargers and the tech growth for batteries would have happened 50 years ago.
Then again cars cause further damages to society than just fumes, but a lot of people don’t care about the layout of towns/cities and access and accept deaths from cars as par for the course.
How practical were electric cars in the 70s really though? I feel like the technology back then would have meant much shorter ranges, less performance, and also more environmental damage than even modern battery technologies cause in manufacturing.
Batteries already existed that could range up to 100 miles. This would have pushed companies into the battery evolution earlier, pushed industry away from shipping fuels (50% of all shipping overseas) across oceans, and created energy independence for regions around the world, depleting that as a mechanism of war. Also means public transit in form of trains and buses would have been hopefully pushed more as well.
Not very practical. There were a few city cars, but all they had were lead acid batteries. I believe the Electrek was one such car but by God is it an abomination.
I get whiffs of it walking downtown in a non-legal state.
I live in a city where it’s not legal an it smells loud enough now. I do think it should be legal, but I don’t really care for the smell.
I live in a state that legalized not too long ago, and I barely smell it. Almost never in public places. Sometimes, my older neighbor smokes in his garage but it’s not that strong. If it was, it still wouldn’t bother me.
Yeah I walk downtown in my favorite city now and it smells like losers. It’s a bummer.
I remember cigarette smoke on airplanes.
And in my parent’s car!
Ugh, yeah, my parents too. My father smoked cigars and my mother cigarettes. I heard stories about how they drove me around as a baby in the trunk. The gasoline was leaded, the air tarred and there was no concern for car safety.
The trunk may have been safer! If the car had seat belts, its not like anyone wore them.
Just have a couple of drinks and it’ll loosen you up if you’re in an accident.
For me the one I remember the most was a grocery store clerk smoking when ringing up the food. We did away with both the smoking and the clerk now, haha
“This is a non-smoking flight.” Yeah, fucking who doesn’t know that? It’s like saying this is non-highjacking flight.
You’d be surprised. Cuba’s state airline only banned smoking in the 2010s, and Chinese pilots were allowed to smoke in the cockpit until the 2000s at least even though it was banned for passengers in the 1990s.
Also, I guarantee you (considering people try to light up in the bathroom anyway) that if they didn’t say that, people would try to smoke on planes more often.
Aviation laws require the no smoking signs to be put there, and ash trays to be in the aircraft bathrooms even though smoking is of course never allowed. Sadly basically all the safety rules are because of some prior incident that cost lives. You would hope a reminder is enough but some think they know better than the rules.
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Uh, no? The first state to actually ban smoking was in 2002, minimum wage was already too low to get by and literally not a single person I know was able to buy a house on a single income. I graduated college then and it was a massive recession still happening from the dot com crash. Barbara Ehrenreich wrote Nickle and Dimed about how it is impossible to get by on a minimum wage in 2001 and was already calling for a 15 dollar minimum wage. The US made no progress.
Yeah, I made $6.75/hr in 2002 as a manager
And that only thanks to lung cancer
I lived in hungary for a pretty long time and there everything still smells like cigarettes… moved to sweden the air is literally fresher and the grass is literally greener
They don’t have a public smoking ban? I thought that was EU-wide
They may have(ive never heard of it) but you know nobodoys enforcing anything in hungary. Its also legal in spain but much fewer people smoke there.
I remember growing up in Ohio when we banned smoking, there were commercials CONSTANTLY about it.
Smoke FREE Ohio vs smoke LESS Ohio.
And even in school I could tell that smoke LESS Ohio was going to force places that didn’t have smoking, to allow smoking in certain areas.
And the guy in the commercial for it acted incredulous that they would ban smoking in bars! The horror! A place where people are densely packed clearly should be filled with cancerous death fog, slowly killing people who want to be at the bar but not partake in death sticks.
I was super happy when the ban happened. I hated going to nearby states without the smoking ban.
It took years for golden corral to stop smelling like shit.
I don’t remember those commercials but yeah I remember when my eyes stopped hurting when we went out to eat and how nearby states just sucked until they joined in.
My family were nearly all nonsmokers even my grandparents, and so it was something I was only really exposed to in restaurants and my parents hated it too
I’ll never forget the punchability of the guys face as he goes “[They want to ban smoking] in bars. That right! In bars!”
