- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has reaffimed his firm refusal to cede any territory, resisting U.S. pressure for a painful compromise with Russia as he continued to rally European support for Ukraine.
“Undoubtedly, Russia insists for us to give up territories. We, clearly, don’t want to give up anything. That’s what we are fighting for,” Zelenskyy said in a WhatsApp chat late Monday in which he answered reporters’ questions.
“Do we consider ceding any territories? According to the law we don’t have such right. According to Ukraine’s law, our constitution, international law, and to be frank, we don’t have a moral right either.”
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Europe should stop acting like Trump is a reasonable person. He is not. And he is a Russian asset.
Europe should stop acting like Trump is a reasonable person.
I’m pretty sure they are aware.
I suspect they’re hoping there are still some sane heads in Washington.
I don’t know if “sane” is the right way to describe the historical MO of the US Government with or without Trump, but I know what you mean. I think.
Maybe predictable or somewhat reliable would be better choices of wording?
The ue has no power regarding the usa sadly. Look at how nato was push with the “u need to pay us more” and how the negociation regarding tarrfi went. Europe has no powe in the matter regarding ukraine and arent involve in the peace discussion. Most of european leader will say something along the line ukraine good good russia bad but further than that ? not sure
When a home invader breaks in, just let him keep the living room, as long as he stays out of the kitchen and bedrooms. It’s a reasonable compromise.
This reads better in the original Navajo
Is that for real?
Edit: Ok lol you got me (I stupid). I found this interesting page while I was checking though: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/home-invasion-how-does-stand-your-ground-or-castle-doctrine-apply/
I wonder how you say “Castle Doctrine” in Navajo…
Never loud enough such that they can hear you from an artillery battery.
Sort of half the joke. Some natives sued for peace. Other natives fought to the last man. None of them won in the end, because they were outgunned, outnumbered, and outflanked. The survivors were just the ones who were best at survival, not the most committed to a particular ideology or position.
outgunned, outnumbered, and outflanked
Yes and don’t forget the concept of “Indian Giving”, which is when the White man does not honor treaties.
Zelensky should ask Trump how much American land he is willing to give Putin.
That’s easy. All of it.
Well, he’s already let ol’ man Vlad sniff around Alaska, so…
That could turn into a slippery slope
Isnt this how russia took crimea. What makes anyone believe this’ll be the last time.
And wasn’t Trump bitching about how Obama allowed Russia to take over Crimea? Yet he’s doing the same, even worse right now. But of course it’s hardly news to any sane person that he is a two faced lying hypocritical bitch.
Don’t forget that 20% of Georgias internationally recognized borders are held by Russia as well, taken when Bush was President.
Ukraine still officially contests Crimea. It hasn’t been surrendered.
But there’s also no real expectation Ukraine can retake the territory in their current position. And the longer the war drags on, the more territory they’re in a position to lose.
The war is currently seeing a very very slow Russian advance, but Ukraine seems to finally be able to strike the Russian economy. The drone attacks against the Russian oil industry are certainly new and increase the cost of war for Russia. Germany lost WW1 without a hostile soldier on its original territory for example.
Ukraine seems to finally be able to strike the Russian economy.
I’ve been hearing this line since 2022. For all the sanctions and sabotage, Russia still seems pegged to the Petrodollar and continues to chug along as well as any OPEC state.
Meanwhile, there’s no introspection on the Ukrainian economy or how another year of war will affect them.
Germany lost WW1 without a hostile soldier on its original territory for example.
And famously never recovered, leaving the UK and France to command Europe uncontested for the next century.
:-/
Listen, I want a Winter Palace Coup as much as any NAFO-head, but you can only claim you’re winning at the Somme for so long before people start learning to count the body bags.
Isnt this how russia took crimea.
No, not at all.
The biggest loss of the Trump administration will be that the rest of the world realized they could go on without America.
He said he would end the war in a day.
He just didn’t say which day.
He said a lot of things.
Moat of them weren’t based in reality.
IMO that is the biggest success. We have gone on too long having too much sway in the world. Power we have proven over and over and over that we are not responsible enough to wield.
If you believe that the trump administration’s first priority is america, maybe yes.
If their priority is making the USA irrelevant, they will succeed.
realized they could go on without America.
Can they tho? Looking at the spineless European leadership I would not be so sure
They can. EU is doing politics. Untangling while saying nice words.
If anyone in the Trump administration had any brains at all, this would have been obvious from the outset.
The only people who can see advantage to Ukraine seeding territory to Russia, is Russia. Everyone else involved can see what a monumental tactical error that would be. Especially since everybody knows the only reason Russia is even at the negotiating table is because they are desperate, given that is the case, there is zero reason to capitulate.
The point is to say Ukraine won’t accept Trump’s plan so they’re at fault.
Which is fucking stupid conclusion because UA doesn’t have to do anything, much less accept a bad “plan.”
The onus has always been on Russia and no amount of feet stomping from the toddler in chief is going to change that fact.
Americans are the dumbest people on the planet, it’ll be enough for them to accept dropping support.
I dont know about dumbest, but they’re definitely up there. The Russians are pretty fucking stupid too. Just a savage horde of drunk, inbred meat for the grinder, too stupid to take out Putin and stop their fathers, brothers, uncles, sons, and grandsons from being sent to the front line to be chewed up by drones.
As an American, I am just smart enough to want my MAGA fathers, brothers, uncles, sons and grandsons to be meat grinded. They only learn when it affects them directly.
If your focus is solely on the MAGA cult instead of the oligarch cult leaders, “just smart enough” might be a little generous.
Americans are bankrolling the Ukrainian defense and extracting enormous concessions from Zelensky as a result.
The longer the war drags on, and the more debt Ukraine assumes in the process, the less sovereignty they’ll maintain in the aftermath.
The stupidest kids in the room right now are the folks at the Russia/Ukraine border who traded in their sovereignty (and often their lives) over an ethnic pissing contest. American investors are going to come out of this flush. Taxpayers are eating the same shit sandwich as everyone else in NATO.
zelenskyy is making the right call. good. seriously!
Elbows up brother. We got you. 🇨🇦
After reading the comments. Is Shawn working from the Russian Embassy in Washington DC? The clown fails to understand that nobody with a sane mind wants to be occupied nor influenced by the damn Russians.
This is clearly a very Western leaning audience that is passionate about their perspective.
I don’t support imperialism in general, regardless of where it comes from. I’m more interested in how empire justifies imperialistic behaviour and how its subjects align themselves with that behavior. This thread has been illuminating in that regard. I imagine there will be quite a few American supporters for war in Venezuela, for example, as there were for the Iraq war.
I agree that nothing the USA or any other party has done justifies Russia’s war in Ukraine. But how the state justifies imperialism and how the subjects buy into and hold dearly their state’s mistruths is what is of interest to me.
Outside the West, Putin has interestingly suffered no significant reputational damage (particularly in the Global South) which makes one wonder how widely the truths that are presented here as fact are accepted globally.
i dont think he have a choice at that point. European leader dont hold any weight in that matter. They love to have their picture with him cause it give them a picture of politician that are in control but they arent. Even with all the money in the world ukraine can’t win. They dont have enough men and even if they send women they wont be enough. The ue is actually already paying a big chunk of ukraine spending and ukraine got recently hit by a big financial/corruption scandal. No european that is abble to fight want to fight for ukraine. It s over for them and zelensky at the moment an election is held he’s out. Is it fair or just ? no but life is like that. And seeing a lot of people that are convince they can send their support are disconected from the reality. About that, ukraine still recruit military personal, so put your boot where your mouth it. Just have to say u will be consider as a mercenary so geneva convention and lot of shit won’t apply to you, anyway won’t change much cause it s not like either side respect it.
There are definitely people in Europe willing to fight, but joining the Ukrainian military as a foreign legion fighter or mercenary is not the same as joining the war with your own government, like you say. And saying the EU holds no weight in the matter is crazy when the EU is single handedly supporting Ukraine right now without US support for the last year.
And ceding territory is simply not an option for Zelensky, he would be overthrown the minute he tried. It’s a very difficult position for him.
Oh so people are willing to fight if it s only sending ressource ? that doesnt fix their meat issue. They arent enough men in ukraine that can be send to the front. For what is sending ressource i think a lot of european were never ask on that subject and if ask they will preffer those ressource get redirected toward them rather than a country that got so many corruption scandal i can’ t count them on my hand. There is definetly a part of the population that said they will support ukraine until the end of time but they arent the majority, nor they will in the extreme case europe send troops be send to the front nor they with limited ressource. Talking for the 7 highest gdp in the wolrd 1/3 of ppl when ask said they skip at least one meal by week for financial reason. Do you belive if a vote was hold on the subject of supporting ukraine the majority will say yes ? Politician love that conflict cause it s ego boosting for them. The population dont care
The overwhelming majority of the EU is actually very much in favor of financing & supporting Ukraine, it’s not even really a topic here anymore. Basically everyone views the Putin regime as a direct threat to Europe. Sending military personnel is a whole different can of worms that I don’t think Europe is ready for (yet), but who knows who things evolve over the next couple years, it’s certainly not impossible. Europe’s biggest problem is that they were unprepared for war, because they genuinely believed Russia wanted to turn a new page after 1990.
The overwhelming majority of the EU is actually very much in favor of financing & supporting Ukraine
no
Basically everyone views the Putin regime as a direct threat to Europe
man he can’t even conquer a country x30 smaller than his own and you want me to belive is a threat for ue ? nato ? or nuclear weaon, nuclear submarin, aircraft carrier and all of that ? who s your dealer ?
I think that’s the wrong narrative.
I don’t think anyone really cares much about that land. It’s s mixture of mud, plastic drone remains and unexploded munitions. It’s important because the defence line is there. Many people say it’s rich in minerals… a lot of land is in a lot of places. Nobody is going to use this land for mining, not at any time soon.
The narrative should be security guarantees.
Because when the news says: Zelensky doesn’t want to ceed land, it implies some kind of pride and stubbornness. But in reality Ukraine wants security guarantees and they would be willing to not militarily contest Crimea and even Donbas. There is no point in ceeding anything were there no guarantees. But if you get them, then a lot is on the table.
The point is it the news and everyone goes with security guarantees narrative it is a much stronger narrative: you want to exist, the enemy doesn’t want you to exist. Instead of taking about land where it can all sound like it bickering about who gets what. Perception matters. A lot of Europeans don’t know any the details of this war and most Americans have no clue. The narrative is important.
I got deleted from another channel “Ukraine” for this view and got called a lot of bad words and I don’t know why. It’s not an extreme view and I think Ukrainian government sees it like that as well.
I see it as a world litmus test for law versus force. If you get invaded and you let them take your land, no matter what it’s “worth”, you have been conquered.
It’s not even that philosophical. It really is just the simple fact that Ukraine has nothing to gain by forfeiting it’s most reinforced defensive line. It took Russian 2 years to advance 30 kilometers, and tens of thousands of fatalities, to capture the relatively small town of Pokrovsk. It’s incredibly expensive for Russia to make even small advancements, and now they want the most reinforced territory in the country for free?
It’s a crazy demand that depends on Ukraine TRUSTING the US to come to its defence after Russia breaks the treaty, after forfeiting their defensive lines.
That is obvious, but it’s not the land, is just the defence line. Hypotheticaly if they get NATO membership in exchange for Donbas, I think Ukraine would be all for that.
People aren’t giving their lives there for some fields in Donbas, but to protect the rest of their country and nation.
There are people there that just want a normal life. Conquered or not, that doesn’t mean anything compared to not being bombed while they are playing with their kids.
while they are playing with their kids.
Sexual and gender-based violence, murder, abductions – including of children – and the Russification of the Ukrainian population. In the areas illegally occupied by Russia, its troops are guilty of the large-scale perpetration of terrible cruelties and war crimes.
Or:
Life in Russia-occupied Ukraine: Terror, secret phones and a ban on the Ukrainian language
You find much more on life in temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine, and it is far from what you apparently believe it is.
I think you completely misunderstood.
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I think Putin needs to remember all of life is a give and take.
It’s not though. There are some situations where you shouldn’t ‘give’, and others where you shouldn’t ‘take’. This is one of the former cases he is correct.
I agree, there are situations that one shouldnt “give” and other that one shouldn’t take, but that doesnt mean there arent situations of the opposite where one should give, and should take…
I dont think im making sense anymore…
At least we can agree on something
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Garbage. You don’t give to those who threaten you and kill your people. What a moronic idea.
I hope they can give -righteous- retribution to those in question.
In this instance… well you know who.
then give everyone a break and fuck off back to whatever shithole your crawled out of.
Exactly how much should one allow a thief to take?
What you should have said was nothing.
Problem: All he’s giving is death and destruction and all he wants to take is land and children…
You can’t both sides an illegal invasion.
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